Smoking

[sir archely]

Okay, i'm really confused by this. Why in the hell do people smoke? I know there is at least one smoker around here, could you please explain it to me, because i don't get it at all.

The past couple days have seen about 8 guys either moving in or helping to move in some of them to the apartment in the basement of this house. There's a door from the basement out near my window, so they all stand out there and smoke. I'm a floor up, but i've still gotten a lot in my room.

First of all, how could this possibly be a good thing? I mean, unless someone has some damned good evidence, i'm going to assume it's fairly proven that smoking kills you. And yes, we all know of that one 100 year old man who drank 4 bottles of whiskey, ate 3 lbs of bacon and smoked 5 packs a day every day of his life and still could bench press you. But the vast majority of us aren't that guy.

Second, sure i'll recognize you're right to screw up your own body, and maybe smokers you hang out with don't care, but does it really make you feel good to know that when you smoke in public, you're damaging the bodies to some extent of everyone you come into contact with? The nature of smoke makes it extremely difficult for a smoker to actually prevent it from spreading (duh) so what exactly gives you the right to blow that damn stuff everywhere, but still get pissed off if someone asks you to stop, and profess that it's your right to do it if you want?

Anyway, sorry, i'm trying really hard not to be bitter, but i'm really sensitive to the stuff, and right now i've got a headache that's tearing my skull in half because of it. Not to mention that i politely asked the guys out there if they could go somewhere else, because it was blowing in my room, and i was told, "just shut your window man." Yeah, fuck off, the entire outside is yours? I didn't say that, what i did say was "well, why can't you smoke in your apartment?" That was met with the stunning reply of "we don't want to get our stuff all smoky." Um, what? All of them smoke, what the hell is the difference?

~sigh~

[Anita Blake]

well, i'd suggest since your smoker neighbors appear to be assholes of the highest order, that you get a fan and put it at your window blowing out the window, so at least you don't get the draft coming in all the time.

as for why people smoke? who knows. i've tried it before, and found it startlingly disgusting. In fact, even smokers don't really like doing it, they just become dependant on it so quickly that it's easier for them to smoke than to quit. I mean, i understand why people smoke marijuana ;).... but tobacco is just gross, IMHO.

Also a lot of smokers have no idea that a growing number of peopel are increasingly intolerant to cigarette smoke. My mom, like you, gets terrible headaches at the slightest whiff of smoke, and skull-splitting migraines if she's near it for too long, and i hate it when i'm outside on the sidewalk and the person in front of me is smoking. (strangely, it doens't bother me when my bf smokes.... i guess love plugs your nose as well as makes you blind :rolleyes: ) I find it really hard to breathe in smoke (duh, i mean, since when were humans supposed to breathe smoke?).

you're right to complain. :)

[sir archely]

yeah, i have a fan, it was running all night.

~smites smoke~

~misses~

damn gases.

[LaughingTurtle]

I feel your pain arch....I’m sort of sensitive to smoke too and when I was living in the dorm, the neighbors next to me smoked all the time...it was insane. I had two fans going all the time, air freshener, and even got an air purifier later in the year (well that was also for the dust which was crazy in the dorm and kept getting me sick)

Normally I don't have a problem with smokers but when it's near where you try to sleep/eat...that's when I have a problem.

My question is, why do they always smoke right outside the doorway of buildings (whether it is a mall, work place, or restaurant). They could easily move away just a few feet from the doors (where there’s usually benches AND ashtrays) and prevent the horrible smoke cloud they create that everyone has to walk through just to get in or out of the place. It's so annoying. They also feel entitled to toss their butts anywhere they choose. It's one thing to pollute your own body but when you start littering you're messing with more than just yourself. I've done road cleanups before and I couldn’t fathom the numbers of butts I’d see at intersections and stoplights.

[Cloric the Cleric]

I debated with myself heavily before responding to this tread, because of the tone of the posts, and the general scorn that non-smokers have against those who do smoke, it generally doesn't go anywhere, but I decided to give it a shot anyway.


Smokers aren't really as disrespectful as you might think. And most smokers aren't really as un-concious or un-concerned about the health impact to non-smokers as you might think, either. If I had to list a class of people that was most discriminated against and least tolerated tho, I think smokers would have to be high on that list.

Tabacco comanpies deny it, but it's been fairly well proven that smoking cigarettes causes a physical, as well as psychological addiction.

Physically, it's the nicotine. There are many products on the market today to help you overcome that addiction. Which, I might add, insurance companies, by and large, refuse to cover. Not a very sound business practice, if you ask me. Pay out $100 now to save your self a couple thousand in health care later, but *shrug* whatever.

Psychologically, now that's the kicker. Many smokers who try to quit express nervousness and anxiety, they tend to overeat, and they need to find something, anything, to do with their hands. I understand all this, b/c I've been through. Many of them lack the support system they need, as well, b/c either their friends aren't quitting, or don't smoke and never have, so they don't understand why the person has such a rough time of it. Again, there is no "treatment" program, like there is with drug addictions of other types.

Most of the smokers I know will put out their cigarettes, or at least go out of their way to keep smoke away from a woman who is pregnant, or if they KNOW someone has asthma, or severe reactions to cigarette smoke. But they have to be told, or know the person well. Smokers aren't mind readers. They also deserve the same respect you'd give to anyone else. Being scorned and looked down upon while someone is asking you to not smoke around them? Not gonna happen. Sorry. Actually, no, I'm not.

As for why people tend to congregate in front of buildings and such. Well, a large number of bars and restaurants are going to totally non-smoking policies. I really don't have a problem with that. What I DO have a problem with is that, yes, they may provide benches and ashtrays, but...tell me, have you ever tried to wash your car in the rain? It's kinda like that. So again, there's that scorn factor. And I know, they do it when it's not raining too, but there's a habit factor and a convieniance factor there. Restaurants, bars, and businesses who have that kind of policy should take a little responsibility and provide a comfortable area, somewhat sheltered from the elements if they want to prove they truly care about their non-smoking patrons as well as their smoking ones.

I can't really answer for the whole littering thing, but, um, LT....how many soda cans, plastic cups, fast food containers, and bottles did you pick up? Aren't you kind of tilting your viewpoint there? If you go by total damage to the enviroment? Cigarette butts with their paper wrapping and cotton filters? Small potatos.


I'm sure there's more I could say, but I'll stop.

So please, let the smoker bashing begin, as it always does in times like this.

/soapbox

[sir archely]

Originally posted by Cloric the Cleric
I debated with myself heavily before responding to this tread, because of the tone of the posts, and the general scorn that non-smokers have against those who do smoke, it generally doesn't go anywhere, but I decided to give it a shot anyway.

Well, yeah, i'm sorry for my post, but like i said, i had a splitting headache and had just been frustrated by some people who were pretty disrespectful.


Smokers aren't really as disrespectful as you might think. And most smokers aren't really as un-concious or un-concerned about the health impact to non-smokers as you might think, either. If I had to list a class of people that was most discriminated against and least tolerated tho, I think smokers would have to be high on that list.

I don't think you can say that smokers in general are not disrespectful. And i'm not saying that smokers in general are. It's a case by case basis, probably depending on the individual more than just if they are smokers or not. As far as the health impact to other people, every single time a smoker lights up in a public place they are having a negative impact on the health of other people in the area. Yet millions of people do this worldwide every day. Sure, smokers are discriminated against and not very tolerated by non-smokers. But the reason is that in effect, when you smoke near a non-smoker, you're making the choice for them. If i tell someone they can't smoke, then the response is nearly always going to be, "you can't tell me what to do with my own body." But somehow, when a smoker is in my area, they are in effect saying "i'm choosing for you what to do with your body." It just doesn't make sense to me.



Most of the smokers I know will put out their cigarettes, or at least go out of their way to keep smoke away from a woman who is pregnant, or if they KNOW someone has asthma, or severe reactions to cigarette smoke. But they have to be told, or know the person well. Smokers aren't mind readers. They also deserve the same respect you'd give to anyone else. Being scorned and looked down upon while someone is asking you to not smoke around them? Not gonna happen. Sorry. Actually, no, I'm not.

Okay, it's good that the people you know will put them out around those certain people, but really, those people aren't the only ones harmed by it, just the ones that have the most visible or serious harm. Take this scenario: I'm walking down the sidewalk, and the person in front of me is smoking a cigarette. I go up to them and say, "excuse me, but would you please put that out? i'm pretty sensitive to the smoke, so i would appreciate it." How many smokers you know would actually put it out? The vast majority would likely tell me to go somewhere else. I completely agree that smokers deserve the same respect you'd give to anyone else. However, why am i being told to go somewhere else? In no way do i think i was being scornful or looking down on the person, simply informing them that i was a non-smoker and they were making a choice for me. I deserve the same amount of respect as anyone else too i think.


So again, there's that scorn factor. And I know, they do it when it's not raining too, but there's a habit factor and a convieniance factor there. Restaurants, bars, and businesses who have that kind of policy should take a little responsibility and provide a comfortable area, somewhat sheltered from the elements if they want to prove they truly care about their non-smoking patrons as well as their smoking ones.

I don't understand why having a non-smoking policy means they need to take a little responsibility, as you put it, and provide a comfortable area. Why are they responsible for you smoking? The fact of the matter is that smokers do not have to smoke. I know, i know, at this point it becomes, "you don't know, you've never been there, it's addicting." And you're right, i don't know. But i think the real question is why anyone starts in the first place. You can't be addicted before you start. I have been in that situation. I'll admit, however, that i don't know what it's like to be a smoker. But to any smokers or ex-smokers out there, i would say equally that you don't know what it's like being a non-smoker. While you may have at one point, your perception has been colored by smoking at some point, JUST as mine has by not smoking.

That said, in not smoking, i'm not making any choices about whether or not you smoke. In fact, i could care less whether you smoke or not. On the flip side, when a smoker smokes around me, they are making a choice for me. Additionally, let's say a situation arises. Myself and one of my neighbors from downstairs both go out to the deck to sit in a lawn chair in the sun and read. We both sit down at exactly 5:34. At 5:40, he takes out a cigarette and starts smoking. Now, who should move? He's making a choice for me, but usually i'm told i should go somewhere else. So not only is it okay to make a choice for me, but i'm afforded less respect. What's equal here?

I should say that what i'm really interested in is why people start smoking in the first place, as that seems to be the major confusion i have with it. If someone could explain that to me i would be very thankful.

[Cloric the Cleric]

Originally posted by sir archely
I should say that what i'm really interested in is why people start smoking in the first place, as that seems to be the major confusion i have with it. If someone could explain that to me i would be very thankful.


Okay, I'm not going to try and hit every point in there, and there were some decent points, even though your veiwpoint is colored.

Okay, I lied. When you ask someone to put out a cigarette, and expect them to, you're trying to make the choice for them, just like they're making the choice for you. Both parties involved have some responsibilty. A single smoker, 5 feet away in an open space, is not going to generate a huge cloud of smoke, and what they do generate dissapates fairly rapidly, so my personal suggestion in that case is 1) Slow down or stop for about 5 seconds to let that person get a little ways ahead, 2) pass them so the smoke is no longer trailing into your personal space. You may not understand it, but they do, in fact, have the right to smoke while walking down the street. Hell, in California, that's the ONLY place outside of their own homes they can smoke. If, someday, someone can show that that single smoker is majorly affecting the health of everyone around him in a negative way, and note I said majorly, then even that right may be taken away, but until then, I'm afraid there's not much to be done about it.

As to why business should take responsibility. Well, let's think about this. Say I own a restaurant, and I decide to make it a non-smoking establishment. I advertise the fact to try and show that I'm family friendly and health concious. I know that I will have smokers frequenting my establishment as well, but since I have designated it as non-smoking, it's no big deal. Great, until the smokers start congretating under the awning leading up to my door, making all the non-smokers walk through the cloud of smoke that hasn't yet dissapated. Am I guilty of false advertising? Am I REALLY a non-smoking restaurant? I say yes, I'm guilty of giving off a false impression of being a family-friendly, health consious establishment. However, if I provided a covered patio, no food to be served out there, so there's no chance of a harried parent saying "first available" and being seated there, and designate that there is NO SMOKING under the awning or in the restaurant, then I've made everyone a little happier, and have lived up to my advertisment. Disneyland does this, and it's becoming more common in places like that.


As to why people start? Peer pressure in their teens, most commonly, or their parents smoked, or whatever. There are a variety of reasons, and while none of them may be good, they're all valid.

[night faerie]

ok well I am a smoker, altho I quit about 7 years ago, so maybe I'm a non smoker now, who knows. I still get the craving. Not for the nicotine, but for the experience. And that is why I started.

Why start smoking? It's cool. Its as simple as that, and anyone who's started, started for variations on that reason. Smoke itself: incense, candle, fire, mist, fog, steam, it all has that same moody, ethereal, romantic, mysterious, aesthetic. The whole thing, the way it's held, (there are several ways to hold a cigarette), the way one flicks the ashes (same for that), the inhalation, exhalation, the smoke itself, is beautiful. To me. And I cant breathe it anymore, it kills my lungs to be in the same room as a smoker. But I still think it's beautiful.

And also, not that this has anything to do with anything, but when I first quit, one of the things I realized is how socially deprived I became. When hanging outside at school, when I was a smoker, I could go up to anyone or any group of people smoking and ask for a light or ask to bum a cigarette, and it started a conversation. When I quit, it was like, shit, how am I supposed to meet people now? :rolleyes: Even now, I dont get a lunchbreak at work. The smokers in my office step outside for 5 minutes a couple times a day. I have no reason to step outside, altho I could often use the break. But it feels uncomfortable to step outside, do nothing but stand there, and come back inside. Oh well.

I honestly can say about 90% of the smokers I know would absolutely put a cigarette out if requested to do so by a stranger on the street if informed that it was bothersome. They'd take a final drag, but they would put it out. The 10% who wouldnt are assholes to begin with.

Most of my friends still smoke. They all respect the fact that there is no smoking in my house, and when they visit, we all go outside to sit on the front stoop & they smoke their cigarettes. This includes in the rain and snow, and all forms of incliment weather, and noone complains. Ever. If we're in the car, and someone lights a cigarette, they open the windows to accomodate me. And I deal with it to be courteous of them. And if it becomes too much for me, I tell them and they put it out. No big deal.

Why do people smoke right outside of the doorway? Because they're told to go outside to smoke. So they go outside. When they get outside, they light up. It's really pretty simple. If it bothers you that much, hold your breath for the 3 steps it takes you to get past them. Seriously. I'm not trying to be snotty here, but be a little reasonable.

[Malcor Sylverwood]

OK, not trying to touch individual's thoughts or justifications. But is smoking still 'cool'? I can't say I'm really in touch, but it doesn't seem to be anymore. At least to where its hardly seen (by me anyway) in movies or on TV. And if its not 'cool' anymore, so much the better. ;)

-Malcor "Out of touch" Sylverwood

[Anita Blake]

I don't think it's as 'cool' anymore as it used to be, but i can understand what NF is talking about, it's got a kind of mystery and romance to it, when done properly at least. I do see the fascination with smoke in general, it's so ethereal and interesting. I've been known to stare for long periods of time at incense smoke (while under the influence of nothing at all) because it's just so darn pretty.

now... if they could make cigarette smoke smell like sandalwood incense.... there would be much less problems with it!! ;) :D

[epiph]

here's something i don't understand.

when i met my best friend our freshman year in college, she was as adamantly against smoking as i am: i'd lost my father to lung cancer, she'd lost her grandmother to lung cancer. and her grandmother was close enough to her to make those losses very comparable. about three quarters of the way through the year, she started smoking. i assume because her boyfriend and his friends smoked. i just can't grasp the why of that...even if i thought smoking was cool and wanted to start...to me, smoking would be just as bad as killing myself. only, i would be slowly killing myself so that i ended up dying when i had people depending on me and my support of them (ie children, husband)...and i know what it's like to lose a parent at a young age and i want to avoid all major possibilities of doing that to my children. and it amazes me that people can think "oh it's my life to do whatever i want with" and not even begin to think what you could very likely be putting your loved one's through at some point.

/soapbox

[sir archely]

Okay, I'm not going to try and hit every point in there, and there were some decent points, even though your veiwpoint is colored.

I agreed to this, i think both of our views are colored. I really don't see how they could be otherwise.


A single smoker, 5 feet away in an open space, is not going to generate a huge cloud of smoke, and what they do generate dissapates fairly rapidly, so my personal suggestion in that case is 1) Slow down or stop for about 5 seconds to let that person get a little ways ahead, 2) pass them so the smoke is no longer trailing into your personal space. You may not understand it, but they do, in fact, have the right to smoke while walking down the street.

My point is that by doing any of those things, it is causing me to accomodate them. Therefore, i'm afforded less respect. Do i not have the right to not be in smoke while i walk down the street? Either of the options is me moving out of the space. Why exactly should i have to move? I'm not talking about laws here either, if that's what you're talking about. Sure, they have the legal right, but i don't think legality equals right.


If, someday, someone can show that that single smoker is majorly affecting the health of everyone around him in a negative way, and note I said majorly, then even that right may be taken away, but until then, I'm afraid there's not much to be done about it.

I don't understand why the extent of the damage matters at all. It seems completely relative. To me, who wants zero, it's a lot. To a smoker, who's in it anyway, it probably doesn't seem like as much.


... Great, until the smokers start congretating under the awning leading up to my door, making all the non-smokers walk through the cloud of smoke that hasn't yet dissapated. Am I guilty of false advertising? Am I REALLY a non-smoking restaurant? I say yes, I'm guilty of giving off a false impression of being a family-friendly, health consious establishment. However, if I provided a covered patio, no food to be served out there, so there's no chance of a harried parent saying "first available" and being seated there, and designate that there is NO SMOKING under the awning or in the restaurant, then I've made everyone a little happier, and have lived up to my advertisment. Disneyland does this, and it's becoming more common in places like that.

I'd say yeah, if they advertise being a non-smoking restaurant, then they shouldn't allow people to smoke right in the entrance way. However, if they do a simple calculation, and find that building some area for smokers is going to cost more than the business they'll lose by not accomadating smokers, then why would they do it? I don't see why it is their responsibility to provide that place. It's only their responsibility to live up to their non-smoking advertisements, which could be done easier and cheaper by just preventing people from smoking in front of the door as well as inside the restaurant.


Why start smoking? It's cool. Its as simple as that, and anyone who's started, started for variations on that reason. Smoke itself: incense, candle, fire, mist, fog, steam, it all has that same moody, ethereal, romantic, mysterious, aesthetic. The whole thing, the way it's held, (there are several ways to hold a cigarette), the way one flicks the ashes (same for that), the inhalation, exhalation, the smoke itself, is beautiful. To me. And I cant breathe it anymore, it kills my lungs to be in the same room as a smoker. But I still think it's beautiful.

This helped a lot, i can definitely see where it's beautiful. I like smoky stuff too, just not purposefully inhaling it like that i guess. But i think i can understand better now. Maybe. Then again maybe i'll never understand. I agree that it's beautiful...cool...now, i don't know about that. It seems to be a cultural construct. I mean, isn't cool a construct in any context? Is there anything that's objectively "cool?" I'm ranging far afield here i think, and rambling, so i'll just stop with one final thought.

Clearly, there are nice smokers and not so nice smokers. I just wish i knew a few more of the former. :)

[LaughingTurtle]

Posted by Cloric
I can't really answer for the whole littering thing, but, um, LT....how many soda cans, plastic cups, fast food containers, and bottles did you pick up? Aren't you kind of tilting your viewpoint there? If you go by total damage to the enviroment? Cigarette butts with their paper wrapping and cotton filters? Small potatos.

I do understand that it doesn't affect the environment nearly as much as other litter but the real problem that stems from it is the precedent that it sets. Sure we found bottles, tires, paper and even a dishwasher once but while they were found here and there, the butts where everywhere. You couldn't go one step without seeing one and as I said before at the stops there are hundreds. It's become socially acceptable to have the earth be one's ashtray. I'm not just talking about on the streets and roads either, you see people putting out their butts almost anywhere outside. Now I understand this is nit picky and my views are biased and not all smokers are like that, but it is something that bothers me a little and it's related to this thread's topic.

As for being cool...NF's justification for starting worked for her generation...due to the movies and the like but I think the focus has indeed changed. More and more young people are starting smoking not to be "cool" per say but more as a form of rebellion. Sure there still is the factor of wanting to fit in but less and less people seem to do it to be in the "in crowd" At least that was my impression in high school. I had many friends who smoked and never was there any so called pressure to smoke for them to like me.

Lastly, as for slowing down, speeding up, or holding my breath...no matter what, it is still one party forcing the other party to accommodate their decision. Non-smokers could say the same to smokers…why can’t those people who stand outside move 3 feet to the right or left of the door where they have ashtrays usually, isn’t that just as reasonable? I’m not a smoker hater or the like; it was just a little pet peeve of mine. Going to college I’m in contact with hundreds of smoking students everyday and yes I do just walk quickly by them or if we’re outside a classroom waiting I do sit away from them. The only thing that really made me have a negative disposition towards the whole smoking scene was my life in the dorms and smoking neighbors affecting my sleeping and living space, which isn’t the norm for the most part.

[almost crimes]

yeah there is still an element of coolness with smoking but nothing like back in the day. i'd say the scorn outweighs the coolness thing these days though.

so yeah, i smoke. regularly. probably about 15 cigarettes a day on average.

why did i start? well all that usual stuff (peer pressure, stress etc.) didn't really play a role. one day i was walking down the street with a friend of mine who smoked occasionally and he pulled out a pack then lit one up. i just thought what the hell! and got one from him. there was no pressure involved - i just wanted to try it out. i'm not sure what the underlying motivation behind that was.
so fast forward over three years and here i am with a horrible physical and psychological addiction, kicking myself in the ass for it. it is hard as hell to quit smoking. when a smoker brings up the subject of quitting and a non-smoker is around a lot of the times they'll tend to say: 'i dont understand why you just don't stop smoking and quit. it's easy.' man, when people say that i want to explode. quitting smoking is so hard, especially for someone with an addictive personality such as myself, and i have tried before. do i want to quit? i most certainly do. cigarettes are a cash and energy drain. thing is, i know what they do to you so having people constantly talk about lung cancer etc. doesn't have an effect on me. it's not like one day i'll be smoking a cigarette on the porch and have a revelation then just quit. i know what they do - but the addiction overrides my desire to quit, which sucks. i try not to let my smoking hurt other people, i smoke outdoors (i don't really even like smoking indoors even when i can) and blow my smoke away from a person if i am having a conversation with them while smoking. i also lose it on friends when i see them starting up with cigarettes and purposelly make sure they don't get into it. it's a crappy addiction. i'm going to the doctors in a couple weeks to get a prescription for zyban - hopefully that'll help me quit.

i think nf brought up an awesome point about the social aspects of smoking though. i wouldn't be friends with some of the people i am if it had not been through smoking. when you meet a smoker there is an automatic link between you so it is easier to start talking to each other, even if it's only about cigarettes.

i dunno. i have a lot of problems with people who have never been smokers talking about smoking because until you've actually dealt with the addiction and some of the other things the go along with smoking you don't really have a clear understanding of it. that said, smoking is abhorent and those of us who choose to partake in it should accomodate those who do not wish to be harmed by it before ourselves.

[Malcor Sylverwood]

it is hard as hell to quit smoking. when a smoker brings up the subject of quitting and a non-smoker is around a lot of the times they'll tend to say: 'i dont understand why you just don't stop smoking and quit. it's easy.' man, when people say that i want to explode. quitting smoking is so hard, especially for someone with an addictive personality such as myself, and i have tried before.
This is one thing you'll never catch me saying...at least not seriously. I'm addicted to caffiene, and thats NOTHING compared to anything really. And I know it wasn't easy for me to stop drinking it, and very easy for me to to start again. ~shakes fist at Code Red~ Anyway, I'm not trying to belittle the addiction, because I can, in some minor way, understand it.

Still, its gross and unhealthy and expensive--you should stop ;)

-Malcor "Soda" Sylverwood

[epiph]

yeah...that social aspect...for a long time i was that way with pot...then i just started hating it no matter what and that was that...

[almost crimes]

exactly malc, everybody has minor addictions that they would like to have a bit more control over. now think of that minor addiction multiplied by a thousand and killing you slowly. that's smoking. it sucks.

and yeah, smoking is unhealthy and expensive. i can't run as far as i used to be able to and i've dropped a god-awful amount of money on things. :thdown:

[night faerie]

:rolleyes: ok, yeah.
RE: It seems to be a cultural construct. I mean, isn't cool a construct in any context? Is there anything that's objectively "cool?"
-Yes, cool is entirely subjective. Which is also why you who dont find it cool will probably never understand those of us who do.

RE: As for being cool...NF's justification for starting worked for her generation...
-Geez, LT, way to make a girl feel ancient!

RE: More and more young people are starting smoking not to be "cool" per say but more as a form of rebellion. Sure there still is the factor of wanting to fit in but less and less people seem to do it to be in the "in crowd" At least that was my impression in high school. I had many friends who smoked and never was there any so called pressure to smoke for them to like me.
-I think rebellion is very closely linked to being cool. It's not like we turn to things we think are uncool to rebel. We do things others wont like but WE will.
-I dont think people do it to be popular. As a matter of fact, I think other peoples perceptions were never really a motivating factor. Seldom, anyway. We do things to please ourselves, not other people. Even if we start smoking because our peers do, it's because we see something in them that is appealing to us, not because they stick a cigarette in our mouths & threaten not to be friends with us if we dont inhale.

RE: Lastly, as for slowing down, speeding up, or holding my breath...no matter what, it is still one party forcing the other party to accommodate their decision.
-Exactly. It's part of being human. Humans are pack animals. We have to tolerate each other in order to cohabitate. This goes for smokers & non smokers alike. Dont forget, noone can control anothers actions or reactions, we can only control our own.

One last point, about quitting. When I quit I found that the physical craving for a cigarette was incredibly close to the feeling of hunger. For months, I honestly couldnt tell the difference between when I craved a cigarette & when I was hungry. Now with this in mind, all you non-smokers out there, think about how you'd feel if someone told you to quit eating. I mean say it wasnt a biological necessity, and it bothered some of the people around you. How easy would it be to quit? ;)

[LaughingTurtle]

NF
-Geez, LT, way to make a girl feel ancient!

:blush: *ahem* *cough* NF, you're the farthest thing from being ancient, let alone anything even associated with age. I only said generation to mean...peers...yes...people of your age group, nothing to connotate "ancient" I mean, you're a fairy, and what are fairies but ageless, nubile, naked sprites? So umm….let’s make with those close miss pixie.

Anyway, back to smoking. My grandmother amongst many other members of my family was a notorious chain smoker for as long as I can remember and even died of lung cancer a couple years ago. But she was the nicest lady I’ve ever known. Smoking doesn’t automatically make someone bad or evil, like someone posted earlier, if they’re as asshole smoker, they’d still be an asshole even if they did quit. The problem these days is the lack of respect between people.

It’s sort of sad though that smoking becomes a social crutch to ex-smokers because once you stop smoking you’ve said it isn’t as easy to talk with people as what it used to be like when you did smoke.

[dark fuschia]

I smoked becaused it was a marvellous stress reliever and gave me something to focus on other than the horrible thigns that were often going on at the time. Also when I was a smoker I had all the best conversations of my life. I just dont' get conversations like that any more. The smoke break is the philosophical melting pot. I don't know if it's the nicotine stimulating peoples brains or the fact that you actually have to go outside and separate yourself from others putting you on an equal footing for five minutes in a crisp or balmy outdoor setting but it just happens that way. Oh well. I'm glad I don't smoke anymore, it's too expensive anyway. I don't think smokers are offensive.

[Alexia]

You know, I once read this post somewhere, though for the life of me, I cannot remember. Perhaps you have read the same as well, but it is worthwhile posting if only for the thoughts it can stimulate. The main message is somewhat... debatable regarding actions proposed, but the ideas are strong.

---

SPIT ON A SMOKER TODAY!
If you were standing in line and somebody suddenly came over and kicked you real hard, you would instantly demand to know what was going on. You might even prosecute the bully for hurting you. But when bully after bully shows up with their new fur-coats in line to see the church concert, and go straight on to attacking your lungs, you shrug it off. The braver ones might try a resentful, loudish cough.
Noble shop owners who will not let the evil beer into their shops are proudly photographed in front of their tobacco-shelves. Going outside to catch a breath of fresh air has become a joke; in order to even get to the part you might refer to as "fresh air", you have to pass through a cloud of smoke which make your lungs twist and turn in terror. If you are going for a long academic education, your lungs will probably give in by the time you reach 30.
I do not care what people do when they are alone or together with people like themselves. You might argue, of course, that tobacco is damaging to the environment, but no more so than cars, gas power plants and computers. It may be wrong to use farmland to grow tobacco plants while people are starving to death, but the same could be said for coffee and tea, even roses and tulips do not go free of that charge. No, if you are so stupid you voluntarily breath in toxic smoke every single day, knowing that the future contains cancer, yellow fingers and bad breath (you probably already have the last one): go ahead, be my guest. But this is a matter of manners.
Spit on a smoker today. By this I do not mean that you should seek out an old aunt or a friend whom you know smokes and soak them without any provocation on their part. Only this: next time you stand in line and are patiently awaiting your turn, or when you seek shelter under a roof from the storm, and some chimney with clothing is puffing a-way; SPIT.
How will they defend themselves? Spit can be wiped off clothing easily. The worst-case scenario is them getting sick and having to stay in bed for a week. If you are lucky, they will use that week constructively, thinking though their manners. Your lungs will never recover. What could they possibly respond to that?

---

Ya, so it was a thought.

[Malcor Sylverwood]

I'm sure its probably trouble...but LOL

And, if you must ask, I don't condone spitting on people :p

-Malcor "Amused, thats it" Sylverwood

[Apoc]

I bring this back up as wiggs, arch, dl and I were discussing it in chat. I smoke, yet they don't, so obviously, and I thank you guys, I got the health aspects and concern.

I can't argue for it, as we all know how bad smoking is and unless you've been living on Pluto then you'll know its a dangerous and relatively sick habit.

Yet I do it, as do millions of others.

I don't think its cool, but I like it, I like smoking. Sounds bizarre I know....he likes inhaling smoke into his lungs?......yes. well no, I like the taste of it, the feel of it in my fingers, the soothing feeling I get whilst smoking.

This is a very touchy subject for everybody. I think the main problem is, non smokers get angry (for good reason) yet in their anger they show no respect, which angers the smoker for the snobbyness of the remark. If the person acts like a twat for a perfectly polite, "please don't do that" then he's a twat and you have every right to get angry, but if you simply go, "don't do that" and reel of the thousand reasons for it being bad to you then the smoker has everyright in my mind to tell you were to stuff it.

[Amos]

nicotine is the most addictive substance/chemical known to man, it takes just a matter of seconds to reach your brain. you only think you like it because your body is craving it, if it wasn't for the nicotine i'm sure almost nobody would smoke. you only ever choose to smoke the first time (maybe. chances are you've been exposed to it via passive inhalation anyway, so maybe you don't even choose). so yeah, it really isn't the fault of the smoker, but it's not like they couldn't give up if they really tried. there is, aside from sheer determination, a thousand different methods to help quit.

[wiggin]

Well, James, I'd actually completely disagree. I think it's incredibly difficult to quit smoking - in fact, the recidivism rate of people who try to quit is incredibly high. If one is only a "casual" smoker, and for a short period, it isn't so hard. But a "dedicated" smoker can find it nearly impossible to quit. Trust me, I'm aware of this - my grandmother and one of my uncles was/is chainsmokers. I have only sympathy for people who are currently smoking and want to quit. That doesn't mean I won't nag them incessantly about it - to me, smoking is one of the most terrible things about current prevalant societal practices, and I'll try to get any friends of mine to stop.

That being said, I think my real issue is with people who start smoking nowadays. I sincerely doubt there is any child in a Western country above the age of 8 who isn't fully aware of the risks involved in smoking. Certainly by the time they are teenagers, they've heard it all before. While I grant there is the thrill of "rebellion", it just doesn't seem that smoking could be called "cool" or smart anymore. I think that people can find plenty of methods to rebel without smoking... and I've seen an increasing number of "cool" people who think that smoking is the idiotic, destructive practice that it is (nothing against current smokers, again).

I don't like to see my friends destroying their lives by smoking - it's wasteful on a great number of levels (health, money, land, productivity, air quality, etc.)... and it can only have a bad outcome, no matter the nicotine high.

The only good thing I can see is that smoking in some countries is taking a sharp decline. Despite the rates of teenage smoking in the US, it's still far lower than in previous decades, and continues to drop. The same could be said of most (NOT all) Western countries. Of course, some countries have a smoking "culture" that makes change difficult to implement (Israel, France, and Pakistan come to mind immediately), but even there things begin to move in the right direction. I hope to live to see the end of the tobacco industry...

Ender

[Amos]

oh i'm not saying it isn't incredibly difficult. i actually completely agree with everything you've just said :) i recognise that it obviously has to be hard, otherwise nicotine wouldn't be as addictive as it is known to be. not to mention the evidence i see of my family and friends struggling to quit but failing time after time. although it's bound to be harder for others than some. for instance my grandfather, after smoking for about twenty years since his teens, decided to quit one day and hasn't touched a cigarette since. no patches, gum or anything, just determination.

[Muffin]

I actually finally went to the docs about my smoking yesterday and she was really helpful and gave me some patches and leaflets and stuff that i've started using today the first few hrs were hell but now im feeling pretty good so fingers crossed it works but if im like a pitbull with pmt for the next week you know why
:D

[Dregs]

What I really need is for someone to tell me "Dregs, you are a big soft cock. You can't quit, cos you haven't got the balls" then I'd prolly quit. I'm not very good at denying myself something that I like (like smoking, I agree with apoc, cos it is damn good) but I can do stuff that people don't want me to do or can't think i can do.

<dumbass>

[QuirkyTemplate]

Dregs, you are a big soft cock. You can't quit, cos you haven't got the balls!

(couldn't help it :))

[Waffles]

Dregs, quit or I'll set my PMSy sis who's trying to quit smoking on you!

Now if that doesn't work, nothing will ;)

~loves his sis for trying~ :love:

[Jennifer]

I read an article talking about a study that suggests some people may be predisposed to nicotine addiction, just as some people are predisposed to alcoholism. Of course just because you're not predisposed to it doesn't mean it won't happen. Just an interesting thought.

[Buck]

Well, James, I'd actually completely disagree. I think it's incredibly difficult to quit smoking - in fact, the recidivism rate of people who try to quit is incredibly high. If one is only a "casual" smoker, and for a short period, it isn't so hard. But a "dedicated" smoker can find it nearly impossible to quit. Trust me, I'm aware of this - my grandmother and one of my uncles was/is chainsmokers. I have only sympathy for people who are currently smoking and want to quit. That doesn't mean I won't nag them incessantly about it - to me, smoking is one of the most terrible things about current prevalant societal practices, and I'll try to get any friends of mine to stop.

Agreed, I recently quit smoking and it was the most difficult thing I have ever done in my whole life. Its been (*counts on his fingers*) 5 months. Wow, it felt longer than five.... Anyway, the urge to smoke is definitely still there but much more subtle...but definitely there. Picking up just one puff will get me back to smoking status this I know. It is a vigilant fight. Having quit many times I can also tell you that a smoker can only quit when they are ready. Support and heckling usually has the opposite effect. What you can do is hold off your support until someone attempts like waffles here with with his sis. But there is some good news. This latest time I quit I feel differently about it, sort of like knowing that was the last cigarette I ever had.



That being said, I think my real issue is with people who start smoking nowadays. I sincerely doubt there is any child in a Western country above the age of 8 who isn't fully aware of the risks involved in smoking. Certainly by the time they are teenagers, they've heard it all before. While I grant there is the thrill of "rebellion", it just doesn't seem that smoking could be called "cool" or smart anymore. I think that people can find plenty of methods to rebel without smoking... and I've seen an increasing number of "cool" people who think that smoking is the idiotic, destructive practice that it is (nothing against current smokers, again).

Yes I agree here too. Smoking is being phased out. I figure in another 2-3 generations it will not be around at all at least in the U.S. It was after all part of out culture too back in the 70-80's.


I don't like to see my friends destroying their lives by smoking - it's wasteful on a great number of levels (health, money, land, productivity, air quality, etc.)... and it can only have a bad outcome, no matter the nicotine high.

Here is where I disagree. I dont think that smoking destroys lives. That is ludicrous. Sure health is a big drawback. But the only threat. The money is not all that bad in all seriousness. Smokers tend to eat less, (and a lot more once they quit.) And only recently is smoking expensive and only b/c of the heavy taxation implimented over the past 5 years. Land.... err how? Are you talking about tobacco farms?? :confused: If anything if that is what your arguing about, tobacco industry promotes harvesting land instead of building skyscrapers... :confused:

Productivity...how? Back when I used to smoke. It used to help me be more productive. If would work for a few hours, and I would sort of get the classic workers daze and kinda of slow down. A smoker has the advantage of having an excuse for a 5-10 min walk depending where the smoking section is ( :furious: ) and come back completely refreshed and ready to go. Plus after work, cigarettes help you unwind and sleep better so your ready for tomorrow. So if anything I miss cigarettes even more now... *sigh* Im ok... I just need a sec...

Air quality....errr what? Except for the immediate local people being effected through second hand smoke, there is no air pollution. Almost none. One car produces more air pollutants than a new york city block full of people smoking. My guess is you mean cigarette butts on the ground but that is just plain litter buggers fault. Some people I know smoke rolled tobacco, which contains no butts and is much healthier cause there is no tar etc.

Everyone quits for their own reason.

Just an ex-smokers 2 cents.

[Anita Blake]

interesting thing about smoking.... my ex-bf smokes, and was spending ridiculous amounts of cash on it (the canadian gov't just jacked the taxes on cigs so they cost nearly $10 a pack now). Well, apparently he's now getting his smokes mailed to him by his dad who gets them from a native reserve where they grow the tobacco, and it apparently has no additivies or preservatives, and he claims that it's a totally different cigarrette now, and that he smokes less and feels healthier. :rolleyes: i know, i know, but bear with me here.... i think that it might not be the tobacco itself that's a bad, it's the flipping tobacco companies that load their product up with murderous chemicals.

out of curiosity, i smoked one of his "pure" cigarrettes (i'm not a smoker of tobacco, btw, i have tried cigarrettes before though, years ago, one or two) and maybe since i don't smoke, i couldn't tell the difference, but i could tell that smoking makes me feel naseous. :D the act itself feels kind cool, like, oooh, puff, inhale, exhale, yipee! but once the nicotine actually hits you.... ~shudder~ i do not enjoy smoking. and so i don't. :D

[Amos]

I dont think that smoking destroys lives. That is ludicrous.
so lung cancer is harmless then? the well-documented fact that smoking is a greater cause of death and disability than any single disease is false?

[Buck]

Number of deaths for leading causes of death:

Heart disease: 700,142
Cancer: 553,768
Stroke: 163,538
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 123,013
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 101,537
Diabetes: 71,372
Influenza/Pneumonia: 62,034
Alzheimer's disease: 53,852
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 39,480
Septicemia: 32,238


Note that these are U.S. figures. And that is all cancers. Lung cancer is not the most popular one of the cancers too.

On a realistic note, people who do die from lung cancer that is caused by cigarettes are regular chimneys. They smoke 3 packs a day etc... Anything that is not in moderation can kill.

Dont get me wrong, I disapprove of smoking..hence the quitting. Truth.com or whatever it is called now is very misleading and choosy in the facts they disclose.

[Amos]

that list is right, but smoking itself isn't a disease etc. it causes and contributes to them. see here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/medical_notes/473673.stm) for a brief summary. btw i think it's great that you quit. hope you manage to keep it up :)

hmm, just noticed this link on the same page: http://www.who.int/inf-fs/en/fact221.html

[Jonboy]

i started smoking at a very young age...7 or 8 maybe..possibly younger, im not sure... i loved it to death tho... :D well, anyway 1 smoke a day wont get you addicted.... and that was usually all i smoked....
anyway, i quit when i was in 5th grade....and didnt start again till i was a senior in HS....in very stressful situations, a smoke can help calm u down... well, anyway, i still smoke, but last weekend i went almost 48 hours without a cig.... it was great.....but back to work and back to smoking.........i need a new job :P i know thats not an excuse too.......

[wiggin]

Here is where I disagree. I dont think that smoking destroys lives. That is ludicrous. Sure health is a big drawback. But the only threat. The money is not all that bad in all seriousness. Smokers tend to eat less, (and a lot more once they quit.) And only recently is smoking expensive and only b/c of the heavy taxation implimented over the past 5 years.
Well, I know that smoking can run up to a few thousand dollars a year. Expensive habit, neh? And not eating food you would consider to be a good thing? Even IF it slightly offsets the cost of the cigs, it's incredibly unhealthy... my uncle survives on coffee, cigarettes, and bananas. Not a good way to live.


Land.... err how? Are you talking about tobacco farms?? :confused: If anything if that is what your arguing about, tobacco industry promotes harvesting land instead of building skyscrapers... :confused:
Tobacco farms use arable land for a black hole in the economy - smoking. All of that biomass that could be used to feed people (well, not the tobacco itself, but an alternative if they DIDN'T have a tobacco farm there) is burnt up. And IIRC, tobacco farming tends to bad for soil... (don't know if this is true any more, though)


Productivity...how? Back when I used to smoke. It used to help me be more productive. If would work for a few hours, and I would sort of get the classic workers daze and kinda of slow down. A smoker has the advantage of having an excuse for a 5-10 min walk depending where the smoking section is ( :furious: ) and come back completely refreshed and ready to go. Plus after work, cigarettes help you unwind and sleep better so your ready for tomorrow. So if anything I miss cigarettes even more now... *sigh* Im ok... I just need a sec...
I wasn't talking about individual productivity (although your assertions are debateable), but about societal economic output. As mentioned before, all of the resources spent on the tobacco industry (land, advertising, capital, chemical engineers, etc) are going to an essentially pointless end - being burned up. As such, that enormous industry is effectively a parasite on the economy, lowering average productivity.


Air quality....errr what? Except for the immediate local people being effected through second hand smoke, there is no air pollution. Almost none. One car produces more air pollutants than a new york city block full of people smoking. My guess is you mean cigarette butts on the ground but that is just plain litter buggers fault. Some people I know smoke rolled tobacco, which contains no butts and is much healthier cause there is no tar etc.
Perhaps I should have been more clear. It's true that smokers aren't a large impact on the global ecosystem (butts and smoke nonwithstanding) - although 1 billion people smoking CAN have an effect - I was talking more about immediate effects. Although the entire atmosphere might not be damaged, near-order effects are greatly influenced by smoking (you've smelt it plenty of times... and to an asthmatic, it must be ten times worst). Just another contribution to deteriorating air quality in urban areas.

On the death figures...

You don't realize that smoking is a major risk factor for a great number of diseases that are all lethal... atherosclerosis/cardiovascular disease being a big one. An it isn't just lung cancer that kills smokers. Of course, it's tough to determine what portion of the deaths are due to smoking - it's just a risk factor, and is very tough to quantify this stuff. But it's still a staggering number of people who shave off a few years of life (on average) by smoking. It's not just "unhealthy", like eating cheeseburgers are unhealthy. It's downright poisonous. I mean, you're inhaling smoke - combustion byproducts - and any caveman could have told us that it's foolish to do that.

The complete effects of cigarettes on the body are unknown, of course, but those pathways that have been determined are fairly sobering. I only wish that more people knew more about them - but for now, the public just knows it's "unhealthy" - a step in the right direction, but not there yet. And, of course, the correllations between smoking and various nasty things happening to you are fairly impressive - I won't claim causation, of course, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is some logical biochemical link.

Ender

[sir archely]

Heart disease: 700,142
Cancer: 553,768
Stroke: 163,538
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 123,013

That's funny, smoking makes all of your top four leading causes of death worse. And saying that the only type of cancers linked with smoking are those associated with the respiratory function is a delusion, much less to say that it's only lung cancer. Smoking pretty much increases your risk for cancer, period. Here's some stuff i poked around a bit for.



-Use of tobacco products, including cigarettes, cigars, pipes, and snuff, is associated with more mortality and morbidity than any other personal, environmental, or occupational exposure.

-Mainstream cigarette smoke inhaled by the smoker is composed of a particulate phase and a gas phase; tar is the total particulate phase without water or nicotine. There are 0.3 to 3.3 billion particles per milliliter of mainstream smoke and more than 4000 constituents, including 43 known carcinogens. In addition to thse chemical carcinogens, cigarette smoke contains carcinogenic metals such as arsenic, nickel, cadmium, and chromium; potential promoters such as acetaldehyde and phenol; irritants such as nitrogen dioxide and formaldehyde; cilia toxins such as hydrogen cyanice; and carbon monoxide. Carbon monoxide [...] has 200 times higher affinity for hemoglobin than oxygen does and impairs release of oxygen from hemoglobin. Thus, carbon monoxide exposure decreases the delivery of oxygen to peripheral tissues.

-Nicotine is an important constituent of cigarette smoke. It is an alkaloid that readily crosses the blood-brain barrier and stimulates nicotine receptors in the brain. It is also responsible for the acute pharmacologic effects associated with tobacco use that are most likely mediated by catecholamines: increased heart rate and blood pressure, increased coronary artery blood flow, increased contractility and cardiac output, and mobilization of free fatty acids.

-It is estimated that 30% of all cancer deaths and up to 90% of all lung cancer deaths are attributable to cigarette smoking. Cigarette smoking is a multiplicative risk factor with hypertension and hypercholesteroliemia for development of coronary artery disease and arteriosclerosis. [...] Smoking may contribute to cardiac arrest by increasing platelet adhesion and aggregation, triggering arrhythmia, and by causing an imbalance between the demand for oxygen and suplly to the myocardium. Smokers also suffer from increased morbidity due to acute respiratory tract infections, including influenza, and acute and chronic sinusitis. Cilia-toxins in cigarette smoke impair tracheobronchial clearance, and many of the gas phase constituents of smoke are direct irritants of the respiratory epithelium.

-Cigarette smoking is especially hazardous in the work-place. Smokers have higher rates of accidental injuries, especially fires, [duh] and cigarette smoke may act as a vector to transport other hazardous agents into the lungs. [...] Cigarette smoke exacerbates bronchitis, asthma, and pneumoconiosis associated with exposure to silica, coal dust, grain dust, cotton dust, and welding fumes.

-Tobacco use also increases the prevalence of peptic ulcers; smoking impairs healing of ulcers and increases the likelihood of recurrence. Smoking may also increase pyloric reflux and decrease bicarbonate secretion from the pancreas.

A nice table from the same source lists some types of cancer and the percentage of deaths with that cancer that can be attributed to smoking. Table info is cited from 1996. Leaving out the obvious direct respiratory cancers...

bladder and urinary tract... 50%
cervix... 30%
pancreas... 30%
stomach... 20%

It also has some other causes of death...

ischemic heart disease... 27%
cardiac arrest... 37%
arteriosclerosis... 29%
chronic respiratory disease... 90%

Etc., etc.

Besides the table, this info is from 1999, and since then, the list of things that smoking increases your risk for has only gotten longer.

Edit: PS - if you're thinking, why the hell does archely just happen to have robbins pathologic basis of disease laying around? ... it's because both of my roommates are med students, we have all sorts of nifty medical books cluttering up the place around here. ;) If you want full biblio info (though i can't imagine anyone would...) that's no problem, just PM me or something.

[~KA3AK~]

I don't really have time right now to read this thread from the beginning, so I'm just gonna say a few quick words. I used to smoke for almost half a year, when I was 16. Why? Well, I hung out with a lot of smokers and smoking was just another activity that we did together. I'm not sure what people find in smoking. It doesn't even get you high. Smokers claim that it's relaxing, but imo really they only feel relaxed because they get the dose of nicotine that their body craves for. I know it did not do anything to me.

Quitting smoking proved way easier then people claim it to be. After a couple weeks of withdrawal I just stopped getting cravings. Now people can smoke in my face, and I don't feel the urge to take a puff. One thing is for sure - smoking is stupid. It's just throwing out tons of money without getting anything in return. So if you wanna smoke anything, I would suggest marijuana over tobacco.

[Waffles]

When you find your mother sitting on the side of the bed, dead, having coughed herself to death, it can be kinda traumatic. That is what happened to my uncle. And if I didn't like smoking before then, I loathe it now.

[Anita Blake]

So if you wanna smoke anything, I would suggest marijuana over tobacco.


~follows K3's advice~ hehe

one thing i noticed when i smoked that cigarette was the extreme difference between marijuana and tobacco. When you smoke marijuana, it burns your throat, makes you cough, and generally hurts your throat like hell. Tobacco you don't feel until it fills your lungs up with burning smoke. It's very odd. Like "inhale.... wait.... :eek: what's in my chest!" weed is more like "inhale ... ow... exhale". It doesn't really make you want to smoke a pack a day, that's for sure. I mean, you don't even really smoke a whole joint, usually. I think it's worse for your lungs, according to some studies i've read, and absolutely terrible for you (newsflash: inhaling burning stuff= not healthy). However, i agree.... weed is better than tobacco to smoke (if you must ;) ) simply because the quantities are so different. I think one joint is way worse for you, lung-wise, than one cigarrette, but like i said, you don't generally (unless you're chronic, in which case, get a life) smoke a whole joint, and you sure as hell don't smoke 25+ a day, 7 days a week.

that was a total tangent, but that's what i think. it makes me mad that the government endorses the sale of tobacco products with added evil, but calls it a crime to smoke something that's much more harmless. At the same time, though, if pot was ever legalized, they'd probably just do the same thing they've done with tobacco.... add a lot of bad bad crap to it to make it addictive and poisonous. sad. ~points finger of shame at governments of today~

/end tangent

[Jennifer]

I can't smoke marijuana (not that I smoked often before :umm: ) cos when I go into work at the park, I have to swipe my ID card at the security gate. Little green light means "Go." Little orange light means "Go get drug-tested." :eek: Chance I guess I'm just not willing to take.

[Apoc]

So if you wanna smoke anything, I would suggest marijuana over tobacco.

This sort of comment drives me nuts, when I was at school, I smoked huge quantities of weed and marajuana- buckets ,bongs, tulips, joints, wallbangers, chestcrushers etc,etc

I haven't smoked marajuana in five years, I have nothing against people who smoke it either, my bro and loads of my friends still smoke it, yet the argument of This is better than that is......arghhhhhh......a really bad one, obviously your gonna say that cause thats your preferance. I would say russian roullette is better than getting really pissed cause at least I still know what I'm doing....see, do you get my point. There is no use saying a drug is better than anotyher drug, especially when one is illegal and makes you not want to do anything.

This is not about whats better than what, or whos right or wrong, or how bad something is, or how great. Its about disrespectful communication between the two.

Anyway, I think my original post was a bit misleading to what I was wanting to discuss, its not- "smoking is bad for you?" cause we all know it is, my argument was on the disrespect shown between smokers and non smokers.

Non smokers in my opinion need to understand that smokers, don't smoke to get at you or damage your health or their own, but because it is something that for various reasons they enjoy. Smokers KNOW its bad, the diseases it causes and the health problems it causes, they don't need to be continually pestered about it.

Smokers in my opinion, need to be considerate to non smokers, but come on....its getting to the point where smokers can't smoke anywhere and thats fair enough on transportation but in restaurants, though I wouldn't light up in a restaurant, I still think it should have a smoking section....banning smoking in bars and clubs, wtf. Smokers though need to remember that the non smoker is just looking out for themselves, and adding concern toward yourself over the dangers.

I think non smokers have the right to say "could you please move", but for the fact that the smoker has very little room to move, arguments flare. There is rudeness on both sides, but in my opinion, it mostly comes from the non smoker, which in turn sparks rudeness from the smoker, but meh, thats just how I've viewed things.

[Amos]

i think some consideration is due of course, it would be wrong to be lacking totally in empathy (physically wrong even: http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994700 ). it's obvious that people who smoke don't do it to piss other people off, but smokers just have to face up to the fact that it does and they're potentially causing other people harm. you're not only killing yourself, but you're contributing to the biggest medical problem on the planet. i see no reason for non-smokers to tolerate any smoking in their presence, around their kids etc. if we start saying it's okay that you smoke we're only encouraging it more, and it is not okay.

the smoker is the rude one here because they are the ones causing all the damage, looking out for their own interest over that of others. that's no excuse for a non-smoker to be rude, but in my opinion they have every right to be adament and insistent.

of course, there are a lot of things that people do which harm others.. people drive cars and create pollution which others breathe in. and so forth. a lot of these things can be just as pointless as smoking. it's almost hypocritical for people to accuse smokers in this fashion. and so maybe smokers feel victimised because of this.. *shrugs* either way smoking is bad

[Apoc]

the smoker is the rude one here because they are the ones causing all the damage, looking out for their own interest over that of others. that's no excuse for a non-smoker to be rude, but in my opinion they have every right to be adament and insistent.

This is my point, smoking is always going to be rude to the non smoker. Yet the smoker is not actually the one being rude, for if you where to ask POLITELY I know the smoker will move away and do everything in his power not to offend, even to the point of extinguishing the cigarette. The cigarette is what the non smoker hates not the smoker, yet they get in such a rage that they show great disrespect toward the smoker with careless direcard, thus ensues rudeness back from the smoker.

My point is we view each other as rude, yet the non smoker is the one with the more freedom, as they have all the excuses and the medical backing, whereas the smoker just has the excuse that its something LEGAL that they enjoy.

This is a losing war for the smoker, practically everywhere is a no smoking zone and they are looked down upon by the vast majority that do not smoke.

So the smoker bows to you, extinguishes his cigarette and treats all you non smokers like kings and queens, now will you please stop drinking, taking drugs, driving, eating too much and so on, as I have plenty of reasons for you to stop those so, well?

[Amos]

perhaps the smoker is not being rude, but they are being unmindful of others. non-smokers shouldn't have to ask in the first place, a smoker should have more respect for the fact that other non-smokers probably don't want them to light up anywhere near them. and i don't think a non-smoker hates cigarettes directly, a packet of smokes sitting on a shelf doing nothing is fairly inoffensive. if it weren't for the smoker picking one up and lighting it there would be no problem.

also, being legal and enjoyable doesn't make it right. it's legal in australia to marry your first-cousin ;)

and i'm glad that it's a losing war for the smoker, or not the smoker as a person but their habit/addiction. i do understand where you're coming from. but while more empathy, understanding and respect are all good things, toleration of such a disgusting, destructive problem is not. in the end, disallowing smoking in public places, workplaces etc. is going to be just another excellent reason for them to try harder to quit.

personally, i don't so much mind the effects on myself of secondhand smoke. i mean i don't like it or anything, but more imprtantly to me i see what smokers are doing to themselves, i see my mother, my sister, my father my cousins, my friends and so many others all smoking, all slowly killing themselves and making life unpleasant for others in so many ways, and it makes me incredibly sad.

[Apoc]

So is the driver of a pollution spewing car looked down upon as much as a man who is simply smoking a cigarette on his own at a bus shelter?

I think the big argument is smokers smoking in the near vasinity(huh sp?) of a non smoker.

It is an argument that doesn't cover others which it should, yes its wrong but so are a thousand other things that are not looked upon with as much disdain even though equally disgusting/dangerous and unhealthy.

I highly respect and try to hold to the wishes of the non smoker, yet the wishes are becoming ridiculous.

[Molimo]

I think it's fine if smokers smoke on the streets, as long as they don't congregate in large groups. I can hold my breath for the few meters it takes to get upwind of them. If I was really asthmatic, I could just cross over to the other side of the street.

Smoking indoors (unless it's in the smoker's house, obviously) isn't good though. I'm fine with a person smoking at a bus stop, so long as they aren't actually in the shelter with me, because then I really don't have a choice as to breathing in the smoke- it won't dissipate into the wind if we're in a shelter, and I can't hold my breath for five minutes until the bus arrives. I'm NOT fine with a dozen students standing directly in front of the school, all smoking, and rubbing wet cigarettes on my neck (I got some pretty strange looks on the bus that day). Respect has to flow both ways here.

[Alexia]

OK. So if someone wants to smoke, that's their deal. Unless of course, they smoke near me. That is considered rude, as I am (clearly) a non-smoker. Just because they want to feck up their own lungs, gives them no right to feck up mine. My appreciation goes out to those conscientious smokers who smoke away from others or in airy places where the smoke will dissipate quickly. Otherwise, I will not hold back in telling you my thoughts on people who are rude and ignorant of others and their happy, pink lungs. Pfft. :dozey:

/endthreecents

[Apoc]

~shakes head slowly from side to side~

This is exactly it, the aformentioned anger toward smokers from non smokers. It is ridiculous and rude to jump at that when you idly have angry feelings to yourselves about other stuff of probably greater importance yet don't express them in the same way, damn, all these angry views make me feel terrible for a simple luxury that I keep to myself.

Damn I don't drink caffeine or alcohol, I walk instead of drive, I live an otherwise healthy life, I don't eat chocolate that often nor sweets, I simply smoke and its the worlds evil to you people, damn it, I know, I've said it before, yet I will say it again, cracking up in a rage at a smoker will get you no where, politeness however will. You are just hurting someone and making them feel evil at something which isn't that evil in this fucked up world of ours.

[Alexia]

So if you've already said it, why keep on saying the same thing? No one ever said they were going to get violent at a smoker or anything. Why jump to the thought that the non-smokers here are going to be rude to a smoker? Sure, some people are going to get real cut, but I don't doubt that would be deserved towards a non-conscientious smoker who is clearly not thinking of others if they are smoking around non-smokers and disregarding said non-smokers feelings towards the cancer stick between their fingers. But most people's first thoughts would be to ask the smoker politely to move away or if they could hold that addiction till they get home. From what you've said, I'm starting to feel meek about my dislike for smokers, which I should not be considering in any way.

[Apoc]

I apologise :(

but nor did I say violence.<SNIP>-doen't matter

Lexi, I agree with you over the non conscientious smoker, yet I don't over the first thoughts of the non smoker.

I have nothing more to say, I may have been misconstrued in my earlier rant, it was not my intention to imply anything about anger toward smokers with you lot, I don't know you well enough to make that judgement, yet my rant was for what I have witnessed with non smokers and smokers, and a few views which I read here that bore no direct connection with their poster, so, I'm sorry for implying that.

~nods~ :dozey:

[gelflingjen]

To each their own.

when everything else fails, we communicate in the language of the stars.

[Muffin]

Ok i think its great that we all care about each other and about the risks smokers put them selves through but at the end of the day its each to their own i have my own reasons for doing and the main one of those being my kids i dont want them to have to watch me turn into this darfvader sounding mum that coughs her guts up all the time.

but as for the cost of smoking its rediculous and no you dont realise it till u stop or try to.Today i bought 8 bottles of small juice a bottle of fanta 2 choccy bars and 2 packets of sweets and 2 lottery tickets (no i havent got the munchies :p )
for less than 40 ciggies would have cost me and i havent had one for 2 days and im feeling damn proud of myself (was a twenty a day girl till yesterday)

[satan]

i find it interesting that through most of the posts on this page (i only read this page i haven't the patience to read the whole thing) "smokers" and "non-smokers" have been referred to almost as though they aren't the same person, it's similar to racism all over again except the "no blacks" etc in the windows of stores has become "thank you for not smoking"... i'm not quite sure why there has to be this so-called "war" it's not that difficult to get along is it?

that semi-rant being said i'd like to say i have no real problem with people smoking so long as they don't do it near me inside... outside smoking is fine, but when it's inside it's too hard to escape.. and generally if someone’s smoking and i have a problem with it i leave if at all possible.. Because there’s nothing "wrong" with what they are doing.

edit: and i agree with anita on the weed issue. i had an argument like that with my health teacher last year...

that man hated me ~shrug~ wonder why

[~KA3AK~]

Okay, I read the whole thing, so now I can actually respond to everyone.

First of all, the risks of smoking. The non-smokers don't realize it, but they are also being mislead to believe that smoking is THAT dangerous. I find it interesting that the vast majority of anti-smoking statistics sound sort of like: "smoking increases your chances of getting ... disease by ...%". They never actually mention the likelyhood of you getting the disease, just the comparison to non-smokers. Therefore even if they don't lie, many of the statistics are misinterpreted. It's like for example I have something like a 1 in a billion chance of being hit by a meteorite. If I weighted like 400 lb my chances would be 4 times as high, because my volume would increase by a factor of 4. That does not mean that many overweight people die from being hit by meteorites. Also, It's not right to put all smokers in one category. Some of them them smoke 5 packs a day, so only smoke 1 or 2 cigaretts. While smoking is harmful, it's not as deadly as the propaganda makes it out to be.

Ok, as for the arguments of productivity and economic outputm I think that they are just laughable. For example would be a lot more productive without the whole entertainment industry. Instead of watching movies we could assemble tanks for our military or something. And the money people spend on entertainment could be used to feed the poor and crap like that.

As for relations between smokers and non-smokers, that's a very difficult issue. I think that most people make the mistake of putting all people in one category. Smokers are not a social class. You cannot put some bandit from the ghetto and Apoc and Muffin in the same category. As someone said, many people are just jackasses and are going to try to do something hurtful to you even if they don't smoke. And arch, walking up to a smoker outside and asking him to stop is pretty dumb and hypocritical. It's dumb because instead of quickly walking by, you stay near him and continue inhaling the smoke. Its hypocritical because most of us drive period. Let's be realistic, the dose of second hand smoke you get from people walking by you outside is insufficient.

NF and wendy both had very good points about the social aspects of smoking. The desire to socialize is what realy driven me to start. I still have a lot of friends and buddies who smoke. I'm tolerant of them. Everyone has bad habits, heck, I am one huge walking collection of bad habits. As for smoking indoors, I don't let anyone smoke in my house or car just because they stink up the place. Closed places where people smoke a lot tend to stink badly. I think us, the non-smokers should stop being so zealous.

Now, quitting smoking is hard for many people. Fortunately it was easy for me. Howerver, I believe that it's way easier for smokers who don't hang out with other smokers. I had a friend from Ukraine who started smoking at the age of 13. He came here when he was 15, soon we became friends. none of us smoked at the time, so he actually stopped for a year, untill we became friends with some smokers. When smokers stick together, it only lessens their chances of ever quitting. They have to stick together because most non-smokers are so hostile towards them.

[Kindred]

but as for the cost of smoking its rediculous and no you dont realise it till u stop or try to.Today i bought 8 bottles of small juice a bottle of fanta 2 choccy bars and 2 packets of sweets and 2 lottery tickets (no i havent got the munchies :p )
for less than 40 ciggies would have cost me and i havent had one for 2 days and im feeling damn proud of myself (was a twenty a day girl till yesterday)

Aside from all the posts here..... Congrats to you Muffin. I hope you stick with it and live a healthier lifestyle.... ;)

[wiggin]

So the smoker bows to you, extinguishes his cigarette and treats all you non smokers like kings and queens, now will you please stop drinking, taking drugs, driving, eating too much and so on, as I have plenty of reasons for you to stop those so, well?
Done. Anything else?

The point is that smoking is an additional waste, one that doesn't even have any purpose (while at least driving or eating can be seen as slightly useful). Also, I think what smokers don't get is that non-smokers don't understand that smokers understand the health risks, because, frankly, it boggles my mind that anyone would actually choose to inhale smoke. That doesn't allow for rudeness on our parts, of course, but it makes perfect sense to ban smoking in public places where others might be affected.

Aside from this, I think you're exaggerating how accommodating smokers actually are. I don't doubt that YOU are that nice, but I can assure you that a great number of smokers who I have asked politely to move don't give a damn. And as a result, I've stopped asking entirely, on the assumption that it won't get me anywhere.

Also, you're arguments on driving, drinking, drugs, etc. would be reasonable if smokers did said activities any less or more than non smokers. They don't. Smoking is just an added wasteful activity. This of course doesn't mean that rudeness is acceptable, but I perfectly support discrimination against smokers (ie, they can't smoke in certain places...) - smokers choose to set themself in said "class", opposed to the case of race, religion, or whatever. This doesn't mean we can take it to an extreme, or treat smokers badly for no reason whatsoever, but discrimination with a purpose (public health) behind it is fine.


Ok, as for the arguments of productivity and economic outputm I think that they are just laughable. For example would be a lot more productive without the whole entertainment industry. Instead of watching movies we could assemble tanks for our military or something. And the money people spend on entertainment could be used to feed the poor and crap like that.
I agree. Except that the entertainment industry has at least some use in stress reduction and the like (and it's not outright harmful, as opposed to smoking), and it could also be considered an artform by some, which according to "society" is worth keeping. I personally wouldn't have problems with getting rid of most of the chaff in the entertainment industry, though... so your suggestion is reasonable.

Ender

[Tatum]

hmm, okay, so I'll stick my two cents in here since I think I may have a unique perspective on the issue of smoking. Though I doubt I really have anything to add that hasn't already been said.

I hate smoking and I don't like being around smokers. My parents smoked when I was a child and I remember gasping for breath out of an open car window in the middle of winter because my parents were puffing away. Just the smell of smoke gives me a headache and nautious feeling now. HOWEVER... I worked for Philip Morris, the biggest tobacco company in the world, for two years. Hence the afore mentioned unique perspective.

I will never smoke. I think the fact that my parents smoked cured me of any desire to start, whether its for stress, social or mental reasons, and for that I'm thankful. I have never been attracted to someone that smokes (well not until recently, but I'm working on him :P ). Smoking causes smokers breath, yellow teeth, it leaves a constant smell on the skin and most importantly, it is accompanied by many serious health risks.

With that said, I generally don't care if people smoke. For the most part, smokers have become very socially conscious. Most that I know don't smoke in their car or their homes. They will move if they notice the smoke is bothering someone nearby, and they generally try to remember that smoking is their choice, not the choice of those around them. Luckily, in California, it is illegal to smoke anywhere except outside so most smokers are socially conscious by default anyway. The one thing that bothers me though is when they throw their butts on the ground and leave them. Its like letting your dog poop on the sidewalk and not picking it up. Both are huge pollutants.

I think we could solve the smoker/non-smoker issue if someone was able to invent a cigarette filter that didn't allow tar into the lungs, and a cigarette that didn't give off any second hand smoke. Anyone in here wanna try to figure out that formula? It would make you richer than you could ever imagine and I would only charge a 30% inventors idea fee. :D