Manners and Friendship

[Anita Blake]

OK. So i had a situation the other day. If i relay the whole thing, i might sound angry, which i kind of am, but that's not the point here. the point is, it has made me think about the place of polite, civlized manners within such an institution as friendship.

An example:

Two people, Art and Bob are on friendly terms, but are by no means close, intimate friends. Art asks a favour of Bob, one which will not put Bob out too much and is well within Bob's capability. Bob performs said small favour, and Art makes a joke while thanking Bob that to close friends might perhaps be acceptable, if questionable, but which Bob finds offensive and insulting. Bob lets Art know that it is not polite to insult a person while thanking them for a favour done, that his feelings have been bruised by the insult, and that an apology is in order. Art explains he does not apologize for anything he does unless it causes death or horrendous accident, and that the two of them clearly have a different sense of humour. Bob informs Art that his philosophy will undoubtedly cause harm to friendships if Art continues to disregard the feelings of others, but drops the matter, feeling angry, hurt, and as though he no longer desires any further contact with Art.

In this scenario, is anyone in the right? Is anyone in the wrong? What is the correct thing to do, from a manners standpoint, for Art? Should he recognize that the words which he felt were comedic were not understood to be so by his friend, and abandon his philosophy of non-apology in the interest of maintaining freindship? Or is Bob being unreasonable in not understanding that the insult flung at him was not intended to be insulting at all, but the kind of repartee that close friends may parry? Is his request for an apology rude in light of Art's philosphy against apology? What place do manners have in friendships? Is it okay to abandon polite behaviour in favour of personal philosophies that have no room for it? Is an apology an admission of wrongdoing, or a peace-offering intended to foster good relations?

[Buck]

Hmmm
This hits very close to home.


I guess it all depends. things like this can get very sticky and gray. Does Art consider Bob a REAL good friend? What does Bob consider Art to be?

In my experiences, usually most people hold each other at about the same level of regard. Sometimes however you get to the point where some people will value you much more than you value them. Say someone considers you a best friend at school, yet you never hang out with them outside of school, or talk on the phone or anything of the sort, so you consider them just a school friend and not much more?

For almost all situations this shouldnt effect the relationship too much at all. Until something comes up that puts pressure on the friendship. Something someone says that makes the other go "Hey! You dont know me well enough to crack jokes like that" etc..

Its a very sticky and gray situation. Just this past week I got in a big fight with a friend of mine. We used to be real good friends and I was even best man in his wedding a couple years back. But since then we kind of drifted apart. He is married now and has two kids, and betwen work and family has no time for hanging out. Case in point, we drifted apart as friends. At this point last week I had considered him a good work friend and not much more. We had a heated arguement because I didnt let him on my career decisions last month and left him in the dark. He said that he's a good friend of mine and that shit like this should be shared. I pointed out to him that yes, we used to be real close friends but in the past two years we have kind of drifted as friends and that we arent part of each others lives anymore. I told him that I did involve close friends in my decision with my studies and he got very insulted at that.

So at this point. Who is right and who is wrong? Is there a clear measuring stick for friendships or is it all just situational? Ive talked about this with another person very recently and we both kind of agreed that it is all a matter of inference. If one of the two parties is not comfortable with something, the other party should not force any issues, joke, jab or insult on them.

Its like a joke. There are laugh at me jokes, then there are laugh with me jokes. If Im the butt of a joke and Im not laughing, I will take insult to it. If the person busting the joke realizes this and thinks that I should laugh with him and that its all in my head -- then that crosses a line.

True friends appreciate and value each others feelings. If one person gets uncomfortable, a true friend will apologize without batting an eyelash or needing to be told to do so. If this isnt the case, it is proof they aren't your friend to begin with. You cant force someone to be your friend nor take you jabs. Its a two way street.

And Im saying this, well considering the fact that I can say some really mean things to my friends in jest. Hell a good friend of mine years ago - I used to call her "Bitch" as her nickname. It was good fun for a while and we both laughed about it, she had a nickname or two for me as well. However after a while it got old and she asked me to stop using that nickname on her. Not a fricken problem. I told her how special of a person she truely was and that she was in no way shape or form a bitch. I never used it again and I didnt need to think twice about it. We are good friends to this day.

[Anita Blake]

hehe, ok, i'll admit it, this "hypothetical" situation is no more hypothetical when some girl asks for pregnancy advice "for a friend".

as far as the relation ship between "art" and "Bob" - they used to be lovers, but broke up, had a bad break-up, but have several reasons why they are still involved in one another's life (same friends, work at same company, in different departments), and they try to be friendly to one another since it was all such a long time ago and both parties have moved on (some more than others). I don't want to reveal if I am Art or Bob yet, but yes, one of them is me, and one, my ex-boyfriend. the "insult" in question went along the lines of: "thanks for [the favour]. you're (sort of) amazing. if it wasn't for your creepy [significant other], you'd be so hot" delivered via text message at 7:30 sunday morning.


(i'm trying not to skew the story too much to my side and make the scenario as objective as possible, which is why i don't want to reveal which is me. because it's not strictly speaking, all about me. though i figure it's not hard to piece it together :dozey: )

[Buck]

Drunk dialing, lol.



Yea, sounds like the person who sent the message was rude as hell and probably drunk as hell at the time too. Sounds like said person still carries a torch for you...err I mean for Bob.

On a side note, what the hell does how creepy or not creepy someone's significant other have to do with how hot that person is? That does not make sense to me. Even if Angelina Jolie dated Ben Stein Id still think she was hot as hell. :D

[Apoc]

I've been told many times i'm a little fcked up in the head for how I react to insults and manners...so mayhaps my word here aint that great...but in the situation presented...

If offense caused insult, no matter how mild...it should be retracted...and an apology made...and if not made after a request for it, depending on the hurt caused by insult, insulter should get a smack in the mouth so as to learn from his mistakes should he think about refusing an apology when asked...

That said...if insult was mild and the other is just being a bit of a sissy...apologise but inform them you think they should get a bit of a backbone...cause if they can't take a fckn joke, theres a world of pain that will create :broken:

[Anita Blake]

hehe, you might be on to something there buck. :)

i agree with cassander - when someone gives insult inadvertently, and the affected party lets them know they feel insulted, the only possible reaction is to apologize and explain that no insult was intended. The only reason not to apologize is because insult was intended. in which case defending some BS "philosophy" of not apologizing is kind of a waste of time. (in this case - quite frankly, all i needed was a "sorry, i didn't mean to offend you, i was just making a joke - i guess it didn't fly so well.")

i think that it's very important to have good manners with friends. Like buck, i have friends with whom name-calling is a regular thing, but it's still done within context - you don't call eachother "putrid whore" in front of total strangers or people who aren't in on the joke. that would be rude and demeaning. amongst friends - sure. it's a fine line, perhaps, but one which is necessary to tread.

hehe, i don't know if i agree so much about giving people a sound smack for minor verbal offenses, but i will say, it sure would have been nice to have cass around this weekend! ;)

[Apoc]

I always give fair warning to mild stuff...a half laugh and "say that again and i'll knock your front teeth out" kinda shish with a wink ;) funnily enough...insults don't really fly my way anymore :broken:

But yeah...joking banter between friends is always on...my friends rip the shit out of me and me them also...but I know its in jest and if I don't laugh...they don't do it again...cause...they know...and I know its the same with them...i'd expect getting hit if I called someone something and they told me not to and I did it again or refused to apologise...i'd be on my guard...and if they did hit me...well good on them...i'd re-evaluae the situation and discover i was the one being a dickhead.

Whether it be chucking a drink over them or smacking them in the mouth...something to show you dissaprove and make them question why you did it is my view, respect others honour and defend your own.

[Buck]

Yea, sounds like this guy is a jealous jerk.

You told him you took offense, and he refused to apologize. So he doesnt regret what he said, even now when he is sober. Shrug it off, and dont help him move or anything of the sort again. He just earned a drop in rank on the friend-o-meter. Aside from that, he isn't worth another nerve cell of thought.


Oh, and sour apples rock. :D

[Jennifer]

Friendship does not transcend manners, because along with manners go thoughtfulness and sensitivity to your friends' feelings.

I know when I'm out drinking and hanging out with my friends, manners can go out the door and pretty much anything goes (namecalling, slurs, etc)...but what happens when we're out ALWAYS stays there. We all know that bringing such things to work is a sure way to hurt many parties. If I thought for a single second (at any time) that I had truly hurt the feelings of a friend, I myself would feel pretty shitty about it and apologise profusely. Because my friends are some of the greatest around, and I don't want to lose them over something stupid.

[gelflingjen]

I agree.

Sounds like Art was only thinking about Art and not a wit about Bob. Its such a drone of today to never care what the other person thinks about you, and this seems to stem into not caring what you say to another person. Within reason, I care what my friends think. I love them.

Because I care, when it comes to realdeal talking, without even having to think about it consciously, I can say what I think without hurting them, and when it comes to play, I can push the edge without going over.

But what for aquaintances? Where have manners gone on the whole? Out the window with cheesy and rude sitcom humor? I'm thinking of a couple jackass/jackassettes I know who talk like they're the new scriptwriters for a WB off color, off primetime sitcom. hurts my sense and sensibilities.

[Anita Blake]

i'm seriously beginning to think that perhaps Manners and Etiquette is something that should be taught in schools. Having good manners is something that's become a bit of a joke, but people do appreciate it when they come up against someone who does have good manners. manners are something that we could really use more of in today's society - being taught good manners would probably prevent a lot of violence. It would also make for a much more civilized world.

[Buck]

I dont know if it would prevent violence. Everyone would just be more polite when killing each other. A few centuries ago there was plenty of chivalry and etiquette to go around and yet people still killed each other. Only it was in a form of a duel instead.

There are people who are polite, mind you some of the more polite people Ive met in the past couple years were also down right evil bastards. Give me a semi-rude but good at heart person any day of the week over some formal, polite, unsincere asshole. :dozey:

[Anita Blake]

see, i don't think that politeness and formality need always go hand in hand. one can be informally polite, in such things as saying please and thank you, in allowing a person to finish speaking before responding, in not talking with their mouth full (ok, i'm frequently guilty of that one). i think it's the association of manners and politeness with high society and formality (and by association, insincerity) that is making modern middle-class society turn into degenerate slobs by choice. We don't want to be snobbish - so we are pigs. but there is a middle ground, and that lies in simply not being rude to one another - in treating others in a manner in which we would desire to be treated -- respectfully and politely. i think much violence (perhaps not killings per se) but brawls, fist-fights, that sort of violence, is as a result of people feeling disrespected as a result of others having poor people-skills (or manners).

[AquaFizz]

One time, a friend of mine insulted me so bad, I punched him...in the face. We weren't close and his girlfriend was my best friend, we had hung out all weekend, he was jealous, he called me things and told me he hated me. In retrospect, I lashed out in hurt. I was asked to apologize-as a friend...I should have been more than sorry. But,when you're caught up in emotions-sometimes it's hard to be. I said i was sorry that I acted so unlady-like, but ultimately I wasn't sorry for hitting him, because I thought he deserved it. I had the biggest crush on him on the face of the planet. :rolleyes:

I guess my point is-if a person is feeling strong emotions, they're going to stick by things...even if they don't nessicarily mean them and even if they hurt someone. You get so intense, so passionate and you know it and you know you shouldn't feel those ways-you'll do anything you can to keep that on the down low. A joke was told, a lame, seventh grade attempt to hit on someone, and it wasn't accepted well-instead of fessing up, they found it best to stick to their guns and hide behind the idea of a "joke."

In friendship, some things have to be overlooked. Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture-do they never say thank you or do they just miss you-and not know how to tell you properly? Is this friendship important enough to overlook that, or is it time to pull away because they're just selfish punks?

...just my two cents...

[Amos]

Hmm. I don't think I would ever apologise for insulting Lyle. I think I would apologise in order to insult Lyle.. and even if Lyle is a "special" case, looking back on the friendships I have had, insulting each other was always a big part of our comraderie. And Art's ex is, by all accounts, completely insane, but then there is no accounting for the way people react sometimes. I see no honourable way out but pistols at dawn - just don't let him have any pistols.