DnD 4E

[sir archely]

Here it is, that whole other thread...

i'm curious to hear what any other gamers (the pencil and paper kind) think of the new edition coming out.

i have to admit, i'm automatically skeptical, because it's really really annoying to have spent the money for 3.5 and then be automatically obsolete. i know 3/3.5 pretty well. i feel like a new edition is damned either way. if it's different enough to actually make me feel like it merits a new edition, i'm reluctant to have to relearn everything. if it's not, just give me some errata and leave me alone.

i will admit, the idea of having decent software to effectively game over the net is extremely interesting to me, especially given our situation here.

but damn, they're still releasing 3.5 stuff! aren't they? take a look at the WotC site, and tell me they aren't. ugh.

what do people think?

[Buck]

Yea, considering how much source material for 3/3.5 there is out there, I would be hard pressed to get into 4E. Though the couple times I did talk about it with my brother, he was very excited about the online capabilities as our old playing circle is pretty dispersed. Not to mention the quillers

I'm more worried about learning the nuances of 4E. How different will the new rule set be? Will it be like going from 2E to 3E? Cause that was a huge leap. I loved 2E and when I finally learned 3E, I loved it as well, but it took me the better part of 6 months to learn all the changes.

Ugh indeed.

[sir archely]

Here is a video that i linked to from the wizards site "about" 4e. don't expect much content or information though, i only post it as a sort of amusing attempt on their part for generating... excitement? not only do they not really tell you anything about 4e, but they also bash their own product. the product they are currently selling. who does the marketing for these guys?

edit: there seem to be more informative vids that you can link to from there.

[Buck]

haha, grapple. I actually tried that once at a session. Never again... oh god.


edit -

I watched all four video clips that show a demo for the software. From what I was able to discern, using the online tools requires a subscription to DnD Insider, and will cost $10-15/month. That is laughable, real MMOrpgs cost that much a month and deliver a much more immersive experience. DnD Insider seems to be a rip off.

None the less, the new edition is completely playable without it. Still, those books won't be out until next summer. I know my brother is buying them for sure, and I will probably hold off on even thinking about getting them until I read up on all the changes and check them out for free through him.

Curiously, what I did get about the changes in the video you linked does seem cool. They're changing the classes and battle tactics quite a bit. It seems like they are making the game more "arcade friendly" which no doubt is being done to make it more adaptive to online play through DnD Insider.

For now, you will have to rip my 3E books from my cold dead hands.

[sir archely]

after watching some of the 4 part gencon presentation that's up on youtube, some of it looks pretty interesting.

HOWEVER, and this is a big one, partway through the presentation the guy says one word which i absolutely dread in this context... subscription. if much of the additional online and net-enabled stuff is only available for a monthly subscription fee, that would just be... terrible. it's also puzzling why they have planned releases for the three books spanning over three months. so you can buy the PHB 4e in may 2008, but not the DMG until july 2008? what the butt?

[Buck]

Yea, subscription details are available on the wizards site. It really is a rip off. The software looks so cheesy and cheap, so sad. It looks like 10+ year old graphics.

[Amelia]

I dont play anymore so I was suprised they are coming out with DnD 4. Im not liking the whole monthly charge to get info on the internet. Most of the people I played with were broke.

[Malcor Sylverwood]

I'm not sold on 4e yet. I remember when 3e was coming out, I agreed with pretty much every change they were making (esp coming from 2e which wasn't better than AD&D). So far its a mixed bag. I'm not particularly worried about the number of 3e books I have (and its not a small amount), because thats just the nature of the beast. Plus, if I decide I don't like the new edition, its not like Wizards is coming to come over and take my old books

I watched all four video clips that show a demo for the software. From what I was able to discern, using the online tools requires a subscription to DnD Insider, and will cost $10-15/month. That is laughable, real MMOrpgs cost that much a month and deliver a much more immersive experience. DnD Insider seems to be a rip off.

I don't think I quite agree with that, IF they can deliver what they promise. If it includes the quaility content that Dungeon and Dragon had been putting out. IF it includes digital copies of the books you own (at the mentioned nominal cost--$1ish). IF the character creator functions correctly and continues to incorporate the new material. IF the materials include errata as it comes out. IF the virtual table is quality and stable. Then, it seems like it would be worth it, IF I have a game to play. Plus, from what they've said elswhere, there is likely to be a lesser cost for the folks who only want a part of it (those who aren't DMs).

-Malcor "Unsure" Sylverwood

[sir archely]

okay, but here's a question. say we want to get a quill game going again, using the virtual tools they have on there.

pros:
-still uses the d20 system. if they went out of d20 i'd shit a brick.
-it probably alleviates much of the mechanics and tactical issues, movement, combat, etc, speeding up the process especially for new players.
-it's a visual representation for people
-a campaign is probably easier to set up
-probably easier to set up characters.

cons:
-still uses d20, but sounds like is much simplified. while that can be a good thing for ease of play, you are also probably sacrificing some detail and complexity in game play. i don't know on this one, i'd have to see how the new mechanics work.
-how will it work if not all players have access to that content? is it only the host who needs the subscription stuff and then others can join that game without it? if it's the case that everyone needs access, that tanks the game right there.
-it's a visual representation. this is a con for me as well because part of the fun of pencil/paper rpgs is using your imagination.
-goodbye rule zero? if the software does a lot of the mechanics for you, and gives everyone a representation of what's going on, doesn't seem like a lot of room for DM fudging. though this may seem a good thing, fudging a die roll, movement, damage, whatever, has saved more than one campaign i've been a part of from total party death (or some other play catastrophe) and thus bringing the play to a screeching halt in a really unsatisfying way.
-i'm very curious about the actual software and how the subscription actually works. am i paying to download something that i can use after my subscription runs out but without any further content or bug-fix updates? or am i simply paying for the ability to "log-in" to their online virtual table materials? if it's the latter, the tabletop and materials have got to be amazing in terms of flexibility and content in order to get me to subscribe. and i'm with buck that $10-$15 seems like a steep cost for what they've presented, when i can game on AIM, and have been with quite a lot of fun for years, for free.

i must confess, i'm getting more and more skeptical about what is seeming to be just another ploy to milk some loyal gamers out of their money. i love the way they went with it, getting into online capable play, and using PCs as tools. when i'm with my original gaming group, a laptop has been part of the table for years, and now we're spread across the country. but i almost feel like i would have just preferred a customizable online white board to the graphic interface they've designed.

[Malcor Sylverwood]

I'm really not a stooge, but I think I can answer to some of your points...

-still uses d20, but sounds like is much simplified. while that can be a good thing for ease of play, you are also probably sacrificing some detail and complexity in game play. i don't know on this one, i'd have to see how the new mechanics work.

From what I've seen, it really doesn't look simplified. If anything, it sounds like all classes will have MORE options. No longer will the wizard have to sit back and wait for the right time to cast fireball, now he'll have things he can do every round (besides using a crossbow). Fighters will get more options than full attack...various things from the tactical moves to some of the non-magical things in Book of Nine Swords.

I think 'streamlined' is what they are looking for. No idea if they can pull it off or not...

-how will it work if not all players have access to that content? is it only the host who needs the subscription stuff and then others can join that game without it? if it's the case that everyone needs access, that tanks the game right there.

My understanding that when you get the basic access, like the char creator...you can select from all the feats available, but you don't get the full text...that doesn't sound too bad, since in most games I've been a part of, the DM (usually me ) is the one with all the books anyway..

-it's a visual representation. this is a con for me as well because part of the fun of pencil/paper rpgs is using your imagination.

I'm not sure which part you're taling about here. The game table won't be like an arcade table, more like a battlemat. In fact, it sounds like it will mostly use tokens unless you want to shell out more cash for virtual miniatures (this is one of the things *I* think is dumb). Or are you refering to something else?

-goodbye rule zero? if the software does a lot of the mechanics for you, and gives everyone a representation of what's going on, doesn't seem like a lot of room for DM fudging. though this may seem a good thing, fudging a die roll, movement, damage, whatever, has saved more than one campaign i've been a part of from total party death (or some other play catastrophe) and thus bringing the play to a screeching halt in a really unsatisfying way.

Its my understanding the game table *will not* implement rules. Or at least has the option to be ruleless. I go a little bit in both directions on this...it would be nice to have it handle some of the tedious bits...but, like you said, as a DM I need the ability to cheat Maybe it can strike a balance... ~shrugs~

-i'm very curious about the actual software and how the subscription actually works. am i paying to download something that i can use after my subscription runs out but without any further content or bug-fix updates? or am i simply paying for the ability to "log-in" to their online virtual table materials? if it's the latter, the tabletop and materials have got to be amazing in terms of flexibility and content in order to get me to subscribe. and i'm with buck that $10-$15 seems like a steep cost for what they've presented, when i can game on AIM, and have been with quite a lot of fun for years, for free.

Again, from what they've said, for the full cost you get the char generator and game table. These you have to log on to get. But they've pointedly said things like Dungeon and Dragon and the digital copies of the books are yours once you purchase them, you aren't renting them. So, that seems to say that you get a pdf copy to use as you will. I'm also guess that you can print out character sheets to use in a regular game too.

i must confess, i'm getting more and more skeptical about what is seeming to be just another ploy to milk some loyal gamers out of their money. i love the way they went with it, getting into online capable play, and using PCs as tools. when i'm with my original gaming group, a laptop has been part of the table for years, and now we're spread across the country. but i almost feel like i would have just preferred a customizable online white board to the graphic interface they've designed.

Of course its all to milk money out of our pockets. Thats sadly the way it works...now, hopefully, they make a quality product to try to do so. Otherwise, I doubt people will keep paying for it.

-Malcor "Cautiously hopeful" Sylverwood

[Buck]

I think there will two major factors.

Will 4E be a quality product? In 4E, there will still be hardcopies of the books, if 4E is a step in the right direction, then I am all for learning the new rules. Some of the points mentioned by malc do seem interesting (special attacks, tactics, etc...).

At worst case scenario, DnD Insider is indeed a rip off and you just don't get it. No harm, no foul. In a best case scenario, DnD Insider is amazing and worth every penny. I am having a very hard time believing that due to having played in multiple MMOrpgs. Between Shadowbane, Dark Age of Camelot, World of Warcraft, and a couple other lesser known games I've seen what good bang for your buck is. So far those video clips do not impress me. If it is just a battlemat, that not worth $5 a month, let alone $10 or $15.

Honestly, wizard would be better or selling the online software and then selling packages of software in forms of expansion packs and modules instead of going the by month route. I did a bit of googling, and a lot of loyal fans are pissed for this very reason, and I don't blame them.

DnD insider aside, 4E may be awesome or may suck and we won't know until more info on the new system is released. Arch, I think in one of th vids it was mentioned that they were still using D20, just simplifying a lot of the complicated options -- like grapple, which I think everyone would agree was unnecessarily complex.

[Malcor Sylverwood]

At worst case scenario, DnD Insider is indeed a rip off and you just don't get it. No harm, no foul. In a best case scenario, DnD Insider is amazing and worth every penny. I am having a very hard time believing that due to having played in multiple MMOrpgs. Between Shadowbane, Dark Age of Camelot, World of Warcraft, and a couple other lesser known games I've seen what good bang for your buck is. So far those video clips do not impress me. If it is just a battlemat, that not worth $5 a month, let alone $10 or $15.

Well, it isn't just the game table. For just the gametable, Wizards has mentioned a lesser cost. For the full price, you get the suite of things. But, even Wizard's has said nothing is final. So, I don't know. For me, as a DM with a group that isn't able to meet in person, $15 bucks doesn't seem to bad to have Dungeon, Dragon, digital books, the character generator, and the gaming table. As a players, its not worth it at the price, becuase I don't need all of that. At most I probably just want the character generator and the game table...if I can get into a game for say $5/month...that doesn't seem so bad. But, I don't know how it will turn out

Honestly, wizard would be better or selling the online software and then selling packages of software in forms of expansion packs and modules instead of going the by month route. I did a bit of googling, and a lot of loyal fans are pissed for this very reason, and I don't blame them.

Of course they are pissed. There are ALWAYS angry people on the internet willing to voice their opinion. I can still remember all the naysayers when 3e was announced and details started leaking out. I just happend to think 3e turned out well...

And, yeah, its still going to be D20. There will be an OGL and thus probably a SRD.

Will it be a good game? Dunno. Some of the changes they talk about I like, others not so much. I'm willing to wait and see...

-Malcor "Patience is a virtue" Sylverwood

[Malcor Sylverwood]

Actually, just to show I'm not a (total) stooge...there is one place where 4e threatens to lose me...

I'm a Forgotten Realms fan, and have been since the old grey box. Some of the rumours of what they are doing to the Realms might be too much for me to take--like advancing the timeline 100 years. I mean...wth? Thats largely a new setting...countries will come and go in the timespan, any human (completely human mind) will be dead and buried. It just seems like too much, but I think they are still rumours...so...

-Malcor "Don't blow up the world" Sylverwood

[Buck]

Well, the cost analysis is just conjecture until they release hard numbers and packages. I was under the impression from the vids that the books will come with digital copies and character creation software for free.

DnD Insider is what will have a monthly fee and from what I could tell, that would include the online tools, modules and expansion packs and other updated source materials. And that is not worth $10/month to me.



Regarding the realm changes. That seems to be the smallest and least important of the changes. If you want a certain NPC, have him anyway. Want to redraw the borders or use old real maps -- go right ahead. DMs are all powerful for a reason


edit - And yea I was one of the 3E naysayers. When I found out they killed thac0 a part of me died inside. Sure d20 is better and makes more sense to the newbies, but I long for the days of explaining thac0 to someone new to the game only to have them say "oh thats dumb, why not just do it this way *insert d20 system desription*" .

Heheh

[sir archely]

yeah, i knew they were sticking with d20, i was just saying, if they didn't then i'd shit a brick. if they switched out of d20, then that would be an automatic deal breaker i think.

I'm really not a stooge, but I think I can answer to some of your points...
From what I've seen, it really doesn't look simplified. If anything, it sounds like all classes will have MORE options. No longer will the wizard have to sit back and wait for the right time to cast fireball, now he'll have things he can do every round (besides using a crossbow). Fighters will get more options than full attack...various things from the tactical moves to some of the non-magical things in Book of Nine Swords.
I think 'streamlined' is what they are looking for. No idea if they can pull it off or not...

i know, but streamlined, simplified, i'm still worried that complexity of action and interaction not in terms of quantity of things to do but the quality and realism of what you are doing is being sacrificed in order to simplify the rules to make it more accessible to new players. now it sounds like i'm a crotchety old gamer but what i'm trying to say is, i'd prefer if the rules weren't dumbed down SOLELY for the sake of ease of play. some things are complicated, that's real life.

My understanding that when you get the basic access, like the char creator...you can select from all the feats available, but you don't get the full text...that doesn't sound too bad, since in most games I've been a part of, the DM (usually me ) is the one with all the books anyway..
I'm not sure which part you're taling about here. The game table won't be like an arcade table, more like a battlemat. In fact, it sounds like it will mostly use tokens unless you want to shell out more cash for virtual miniatures (this is one of the things *I* think is dumb). Or are you refering to something else?

okay, this is good for me. i definitely wouldn't shell out more for the little crappy graphic dudes if i can just have tokens or something. how do you get "basic access"? that part is confusing to me. so you get the books, and in the books is a code for basic access that you... pay $1 for? get for "free" (cost of books)? what?

Its my understanding the game table *will not* implement rules. Or at least has the option to be ruleless. I go a little bit in both directions on this...it would be nice to have it handle some of the tedious bits...but, like you said, as a DM I need the ability to cheat Maybe it can strike a balance... ~shrugs~

yeah, it'd definitely be nice to have it handle things some time. i'm just doubtful that the software will be complicated enough to allow the DM to turn on/off different rule elements at will. but we'll see.

Again, from what they've said, for the full cost you get the char generator and game table. These you have to log on to get. But they've pointedly said things like Dungeon and Dragon and the digital copies of the books are yours once you purchase them, you aren't renting them. So, that seems to say that you get a pdf copy to use as you will. I'm also guess that you can print out character sheets to use in a regular game too.

~is wondering about the DRM nightmare this will become~ besides, i thought Dragon was done? are they bringing it back for this? or is it just old content updated?


what i would have really liked to see was when you bought the books, a CD in the back of all of them, providing easy access to the books in digital, interactive form. (not just pdf's even, but books with links to other sections, click on a skill/feat it tells you what it does, etc. once you had all three, they could easily be made interactive with each other.) and the CDs also providing the software to play online. PHB giving you the "basic" set of char creation and allowing you to participate in games but not DM them. DMG obviously giving you the ability to set up games and host them. then you release content as updates and downloads, for no charge, because people already bought the books. i would far far far prefer paying extra for the books initially but not have a subscription fee going.

i mean, compare $15/month for WoW to $15/month for this stuff. with WoW i get an environment to play in, tons of content, and the ability to pretty much play every night if i want to, because i don't have to worry about scheduling time where everyone can make it. i don't have any of the responsibility of being the DM. this cuts both ways, but it's not going to hurt your 'session' if the DM has an off night. with DnD Insider, i'm paying 15/month for stuff that, if i'm lucky, i'm playing with once a week. more likely would be twice or even once a month. i know it's like comparing apples to oranges in a sense, but it's not all that bad of a comparison.

i dunno, i'm optimistic as well malc, but at this stage, the subscription cost seems highly disproportionate to the product. it also bothers me that they've been working on this for 2 years. that means that 3.5 was only out for 3 years before they decided to start a new edition. 3e was only out for 3 years before 3.5 came out. it makes me feel like RPG books are a bad "investment" and that i should simply stick with the stuff i have, because there's always going to be newer editions coming out.