The loss of innocence

[Eyreplenh]

1520, friday 22: A powerful car bomb goes off in the middle of the political hub in Oslo, Norway. A whole block is turned into a warzone and windows are blown in several hundred meters away.

Around 1700, same day: A man identifies himself as a policeman at the boats going out to Utøya, where a political youth camp is taking place with some 700 youngsters are gathered to debate, learn and get inspiration. The man is properly dressed as a policeman and has a believable cause as to his presence -the now known bombing. Upon landing on Utøya he starts firing more or less wildly into the crowds, as well as following and executing the scared. When people starts jumping in the water he calmly shoots the ones in range before resuming his hunt on the island.


The bomb was powerful and situated near in the district where all ministers and bureaucracy is located, the prime ministers office is in the building where most of the impact went, but in all the dark there seems to be some light as the bomb made more facial injuries than structural. There was no buildings collapsing or major fires, and in addition to this there is a general holiday these weeks, so the buildings were a lot less full than they usually are. Still the bang killed seven instantly and several more are in limbo. But worst of all was that the bomb, well planned and destructive as it was, probably was just a cover for what was to come.

Two hours later the madman (32) made landing on the island where Norways leading political party has had, since the 1950s I think, their summer camp for young interestees. In cold blood he started shooting, and the focus of the police, medics and media where turned on the island where frightened kids had started texting emergency services and family and friends, all with the same words: "We are being shot and killed. Don't call me as he will hear and find me"

As most of Norway turned in last night the perpetrator was apprehended and police were scouring the island. At the time the police could confirm 10 casualties, but doubted the macabre search was finished. Even so, it was quite a shock to wake up this morning to find out that no less than 85 kids and young adults were killed in those dreadful hours, making it the worst shooting incident in peacetime ever. The police had by then also searched the madmans home and found extensive plans and ingredients for the bomb, linking the horrible incidents together.

We're all a bit shocked over here, but I'll try to post some more later.

[Buck]

I'd attempt to dig up some quote to stir up some wisdom, but I don't have it in me. Senseless loss like this is the worst sort. It leaves me with a sour taste in my mouth as well as revulsion. There aren't many countries I could think of that I'd never expect an act like this to occur in, Norway was one such and still is in my book. A good people and culture that I hope will not have a lasting scar from this. Be strong as an oak.

[Jennifer]

I am so sad and sick over what happened over there, Eyre. The families of the murdered, the island's survivors...they will all be haunted by such a seemingly senseless act. Not even seemingly senseless...it WAS senseless. No matter what that shooter's motivations were, the slaughter of those poor innocents is just...well, horrific.

[sir archely]

Horrified. The people of Norway have been much in my thoughts of late.

Just as a bit of unsolicited perspective for those of us in the states, in terms of human casualties as a proportion of population, this was about the same as two 9/11s.

From the little I understand about Utøya, this represents a great loss of future leadership of the country.

[Anita Blake]

No words can even cover it. For someone to go out with premeditation, have carefully thought it through, to go out and kill a bunch of kids, turn himself in and say how necessary it was in order to create a more racist state... No, I don't think there are words for that. Nothing that covers the magnitude of the monstrosity of such an act. I don't even know what I'd want done with such a ... person.

Much love and sympathy to the families, and to the nation of Norway.

[Eyreplenh]

I am so sad and sick over what happened over there, Eyre. The families of the murdered, the island's survivors...they will all be haunted by such a seemingly senseless act. Not even seemingly senseless...it WAS senseless. No matter what that shooter's motivations were, the slaughter of those poor innocents is just...well, horrific.

Horrific sums it up quite well, I'm sad to say.

Just as a bit of unsolicited perspective for those of us in the states, in terms of human casualties as a proportion of population, this was about the same as two 9/11s.

Did not know this.

From the little I understand about Utøya, this represents a great loss of future leadership of the country.

This is true. The Labor Party has used this island for many, many years to inspire young political adepts. It's been a place where the youngsters have had a chance to exercise some debate-muscles, listen to speeches and attend seminars given by, usually, a wide specter of political fractions and opinions. Our current prime minister went there several times as leader of the Labour Party Youths, as did several of our prime ministers before him. In one of the more moving speeches he gave today he spoke about a few of the people killed, unique and bold political talents whose voices have for ever been quietened.




Sigh. I've just downloaded the madmans expansive "declaration", but I am still biased as to whether or not to read it. My curiosity and need for answers really is without borders, and yet I don't know if he deserves the honor. That is why I also deleted his name from my first post. Grandiose thoughts about himself and his cause is without doubt part of what made him capable of such a horrid act, and I don't feel any poarticular urge to bloat his ego. I wish the media would take the same path, as I imagine one of his worst nightmares would be to fail to make his name known to history. On the other hand, for people more directly affected, I can see that having a face and a name to direct some of those overwhelming emotions might offer some sort of comfort.

Huh. We're such a small nation though, that more or less everyone is directly affected. I've been lucky, noone close to me were on site in Oslo or on Utøya, still a friend, peripheral yet we hug when we meet, had a summer internship in the departments and is just out of surgery. Her head were pierced twice with shards of glass, she had internal injuries in lungs and liver and still some vague neck/back injuries. All in all it seems she is one of the lucky ones and will survive and lead a normal life after som rehabilitation. My brother lost a friend on Utøya, and my cousin lost three.

I wrote the above last night, don't know why the posting didn't go through, but after a night of sleep I think curiosity is going to win out. Still bothers me that the police/justice department is currently considering giving him an open hearing though. Open hearing means live television coverage, which the scum don't deserve.

I came across a fairly good analysis of the murderer, from a guy that has been tracking some right wing movements for some years. An english version of that blog post is here

[Buck]

If you can stomach it, skim it over after a few more days. I don't expect you to understand his rationale, I'd imagine he's simply bat shit nuts, but insight is insight.
And while it's awfully convenient to target conservatives in general for this, I'm pretty damn sure 99.9%+ of them do not condone this sort of attack.

What sickens me is how much this was labeled as a muslim attack the first day. Knee jerk ahoy.

[Eyreplenh]

If you can stomach it, skim it over after a few more days. I don't expect you to understand his rationale, I'd imagine he's simply bat shit nuts, but insight is insight.
And while it's awfully convenient to target conservatives in general for this, I'm pretty damn sure 99.9%+ of them do not condone this sort of attack.

What sickens me is how much this was labeled as a muslim attack the first day. Knee jerk ahoy.

Yeah, I'm reading bits and pieces of it, and it is interesting reading, a testament to the (unexisting) boundaries of human madness. As for his rationale, so far I've come across very little that's actually original. The pieces of argumentation that's actually pretty solid (not the fact's or premises, necessarily, but the argument per se), or interesting seem to be copy/pasted from other right wing thinkers

*! When I write wright wing, I mean extreme right wing, like extreme fringe, like Jean Marie le Pen and then some right wing, like Geert Wilders is a well mannered chicken in comparison right wing. I realize that I translate our meaning of right wind literally (we call conservatives right siders, and the extremes wingers. Sorry if I have been giving the impression that this mans horrible deeds is grounded on general conservative thinking. Didn't mean to. !*

Haven't really read the middle bit, which I suppose is mainly arguments about immigration, islamist takeover and other paranoia -stuff that could well come up in future political discussions. However, at the beginning and end of the document, the bits the shit clearly wrote himself, the madness shines through. A clear case of delusions of grandeur, total psychotic persona and a complete removal from the human society. He also writes some pieces about ways he thinks he might die during the attack, I think he really hoped he would be killed to score those extra martyr media-points. More disturbingly, he writes a little bit about a few networks he supposedly belongs to and is backed by, about more and active terrorist cells and things like that. Now, experts both on terror and on personalities says that this might well be false, that it's just a part of his delusions, building up an organization and support in his mind for what he was about to do and to further expand his import.

I'm really proud of my country though. For once. You say that you were sickened by the labelling of a muslim attack, and I agree. For me personally, I'm almost embarrased to say I automatically thought it, and at once got a bad feeling in my gut since me and WG were flying just a couple of days later, but it passed soon. The media speculated about it in the beginning, and there were no shortage of experts being interviewed that had no doubt, that several pointers made it clear this was Al-Qs work. But our politicians never took that leap, and refused to speculate. And the media followed. All over, the way we have responded to this, with roses, with gatherings, with talks, I'm really proud. No metaphors of wars or enemies, instead messages of love, democracy and openess. I like it.

What fails to shock me though, sadly, is that several fringe politicians, in France, and Italy, and Hungary have gone out and actually voiced support for the animal. Sure, they have been kicked out of their respective parties, but in a couple of the cases, one gets the feeling it's more because they voiced it out loud and outside the pary walls than for anything else. With the economical unstability as an ominous back rug for the entire european area, I think we might be heading for what Terry Pratchett would call interesting times.

[sir archely]

What fails to shock me though, sadly, is that several fringe politicians, in France, and Italy, and Hungary have gone out and actually voiced support for the animal. Sure, they have been kicked out of their respective parties, but in a couple of the cases, one gets the feeling it's more because they voiced it out loud and outside the pary walls than for anything else. With the economical unstability as an ominous back rug for the entire european area, I think we might be heading for what Terry Pratchett would call interesting times.

It's not exactly limited to that side of the pond. There have been more than a few right-wingers over here who have also voiced support. Most of the time it's couched in something like, "I don't approve of the methods, but he had a point." Which is horrible anyway. Honestly Buck, I think your 99.9% is probably a bit high. There is an extreme right group of people in this country, something like 15% or so, that would certainly find common ground with Breivik. Mainstream commentators like Pat Buchanan and Rush Limbaugh have expressed interest in his political thought. Glenn Beck compared Utøya campers to "Hitler youth." Many comments on Beck's blog expressed interest in Breivik's thoughts, and some go farther than that. I get the same idea, in many cases, that there is a lot of nodding and winking going on in very conservative circles. That in public, you have to condemn the actions, but you can applaud the thought at least. In privatethough?

I'd guess 99.9% is way too high.

[Buck]

I have a hard time buying that arch, I spent a few years living in the midwest and visited the south on occasion for weddings and the like. I befriended a lot of conservatives, I know how the right wing acts and thinks, even behind closed doors. Yes, the fringes of that political arm can be truly cruel and heartless from a more moderate viewpoint, but even they have limits of their morale code.

Slaughtering youth isn't within reason. And any of the usual media suspects stating sensationalist thoughts are just doing it for ratings. I very much doubt most of Limbaugh's audience would be willing to shoot kids or blow up a government building.

[sir archely]

I'm not saying anything close to "most" of the right wing. I'm saying about 15% of that community has no problem with the political thought of Breivik. Some portion of that 15% is going to be okay with his methods as well.

Frankly Buck, anecdotes about spending some time in the midwest (PS, I spent most of my life in the midwest) and south, and befriending conservatives teaching you how the right wing acts and thinks don't mean shit. Try the Southern Poverty Law Center. Or here.

Just the fact that right-wing hate-mongers like Limbaugh or Beck would say such things to "get ratings" should be an indication of who they are pandering to. I'm not saying that 15% of conservatives are right-wing terrorists, or would be willing to do the shooting or blow up government buildings. What I am saying is that it's a much larger percentage that are sympathetic to Breivik.

[sir archely]

There's also this:

No, Beck wasn’t justifying the killing of 68 people on Utoya Island. He was merely muddying the humanity of those young people executed by Anders Behring Breivik, the self-professed “Christian Knight” who has confessed to the attacks. But Beck’s Web site, The Blaze, was full of justifications for the mass murder of innocents, and provided a sampling of the troubled audience he caters to in this country.

There were many, many more, of a similar vein. “You gotta like the guy,” another person wrote. “He speaks the truth” and has the mettle “to prove it.”

[Eyreplenh]

Another interesting angle came up the other day, concerning the trial and punishment of Breivik. Firstly, there's those that's been arguing that we need a whole new revision of our laws, just to up the penalties a bit to give him what he deserves. Normally, 21 years is the maximum penalty over here (and it does not work additive even though you kill more people), while if Breivik is tried for crimes against humanity and human rights, the upper limit is 30 years.

Now, luckily, noone has taken the bait to push the stronger punishments (after all, changing our basic laws because of him would definitively be a personal victory for him), and there isn't much reason to (the law also opens for so-called detention for inmates who're liable to do bad again, which is given in five years terms -no doubt he'll be behind bars until he's to old to remember), but the discussion opened up another thread of thought that's more difficult.

Long term inmates live fairly sivilized lives. That means a restricted library access, some letter and phone activity (don't know about visitation), and the internet. Now, on the one hand, we have a political system that has been crystal clear on the fact that this attack shall not change our society, when it somes to surveillance, restriction on any basic rights (like speech) or anything like that. On the other hand, you have a terrorist, whose main and favoured channel of communication is said internet. If he gets it, I'm sure it will be watched and with some restriction, but where do you draw those lines? Where do you start making sympathisers for the lunatics, if we push the boundaries for what we are willing to do for this very special case, wont that lower the threshold to push those lines again?

All our known criminal groups have been publicly saying Breivik will never be safe in any prison, something that will probably force him into doing his time in isolation, which I'm fairly pleased about. Don't like the idea of a public death of this person, to much of the martyr-image to be gained, but if he lives out his days with the bare minimum of human contact it will serve him right.



Another point is that our judiciary system has always been one of rehabilitation. Does that apply even here? I'm confused.

[Buck]

Arch, the issue I have with such things a conclusion is that a lot of conservatives don't listen to Beck or Limbaugh. And of those that do, not all of them agree with what they say. The number is much closer to 1% than 15%, imo.


And Eyre, I have to admit I have a hard time understanding your judicial system. Ours, while it leaves wiggle room for rehabilitation and early release, is also capable of being severe for our nastier convicts. A maximum jail time of 30 years is a surprise, and as much as I'd be inclined to sympathize with making additions to the books for such sorts, whether it would be retro active or not, I wouldn't consider this a victory for the guy. Someone did something horrible, to the point your incarceration system doesn't account for such an extreme case. It would make sense to make a few updates to the system, and I'd consider this a valid response.

Hell, I'd encourage him to get the file and forget treatment. But that requires the media to let this topic go.