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Thread: Flu Vaccinations (and others?)

  1. #16
    King Sloth High House Chaos sir archely's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flu Vaccinations (and others?)

    First off, I'll say this. There are two issues here that I probably should not have pushed together so readily. That of the seasonal flu vaccine and the H1N1 vaccine this year, and that of the bogus claims of autism from vaccinations. They are definitely related, but should probably be discussed separately.


    I will try to deal with the flu shot, and H1N1 shots first.
    First off, this is not your ordinary yearly flu, and should not be treated as such. Yes, you are still not very likely to die from it. However, whereas with normal flu season most of the population already has some level of immunity, basically everyone under the age of 60 has no immunity to this flu. It also has a much higher rate of those infected needing hospitalization than your normal yearly flu. According to the WHO, the swine flu virus travels deeper into the lungs than the normal seasonal flu, and is more likely to produce pneumonia on its own. We aren't even into the normal run of flu season, and we're at something like 86 children deaths, compared to the upper bound of 88 children deaths for the entire run of a normal flu season. Most of those deaths have fallen in the last month.

    As far as immune response of vaccine compared to getting it, as far as I know, there is no difference in the strength of your immunity. As amos said, the vaccine is usually just a dead form of the virus, no different from the actual live virus. Your body develops the immunity as if you had gotten sick, only you don't. That's the beauty of a vaccine.

    Quote Originally Posted by night faerie View Post
    And not for nothing, but it really pisses me off that this stupid flu vaccine has become a hot spot for so many people. I don't think anyone who gets one is an idiot, I think they are doing what they believe is the best FOR THEM. I expect the same respect.
    ...
    I am not opposed to the "herd immunizations" in theory. I think it's a very smart thing to do, but it's like the whole antibacterial paranoia thing. Be smart about the things our kids NEED to be immunized against & let parents make educated decisions on things that are not a serious threat. And lets be realistic on what a serious threat is. Getting sick is not the end of the world.
    Quote Originally Posted by nf
    See, that's exactly what I'm saying. You know your kids and you're making a decision you know will be right FOR THEM and for their (& your) situation. That's exactly how it should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by nf
    Maybe I'm wrong, but I still think I have the right to make what I believe is the right decision. I just don't see what the big deal is with getting the flu. And as for the pox, well, I think the gov't should get the hell out of my kids' bloodstream for something as minor as the pox.
    Quote Originally Posted by mike
    Besides that, look at the facts. Most people who die, die from complications due to other diseases. In the Netherlands four people died so far, and all of them were seriously weakened by other health issues before they were infected. That doesn't mean you should take this lightly. It's can be a dangerous kind of flu. But it also means you shouldn't blow it out of proportions.
    The above quotes highlight the reason that getting vaccinated is something that socially responsible in civilized societies do. It revolves around what is known as herd immunity. nf referenced it briefly, but here is the link to the wikipedia article in case anyone is curious. Briefly, the idea is that there is a certain threshold percentage of the population who are immune, for any given disease, which, when met or exceeded, provides a sort of protection for those individuals who are not immune themselves. With so many people immune, the chain of infection cannot reach as far, and it is less likely for a vulnerable person to come into contact with someone who is infected. Now, why is this important and how does being socially responsible come into it?

    Because you are not simply "making a choice for yourself" when you choose not to get vaccinated. Mike highlighted this brilliantly, though unintentionally, in the above quote. Many, if not most, of the people who will become seriously ill, and potentially die of the flu, are people who already have complications [/i]before[/i] the flu hits them. I said this in my opening post, in shorter form, but it bears repeating. There are those within our society who have compromised systems for one reason or another. Some cannot take the vaccine, some have immune system deficiencies, et cetera, et cetera. When you choose not to get vaccinated, you are not only saying, I'm okay, I'll risk it, you are also saying, I don't care much about that person next to me in the grocery store who may not be as able to handle the flu as I am. If your position is that the lives of those people simply aren't worth protecting, or that you getting the vaccine is simply too much of an inconvenience to do your part to try and stem the vectors of infection for those people's sakes, then say that. But try not to hide behind, I'm making this choice for myself and nobody else, unless you plan to live in your cabin in the woods and not come into contact with anyone, or anything that anyone else may come into contact with. As socially responsible people, I would hope that we protect those in our society who are worse off in whatever area. nf, if yours was the kid who was particularly vulnerable to a deadly, or incredibly harmful, bought of pox, you may be singing a different tune with regards to mandatory vaccinations.

    Now, let me be clear here, I am not proposing mandatory vaccination. I think that's a recipe for disaster. What I am saying is that you have a choice between a clearly correct, responsible choice, and a clearly wrong one. So make the right choice. Sorry if that is harsh, but it's the truth.


    ====


    On autism, adjuvants, "contaminants" and vaccines.


    Quote Originally Posted by nf
    I didn't even get into the fact that most of the info we get on how safe/unsafe any of the vaccinations are comes from either the Media or the Companies producing or selling the vaccinations, neither of which are trustworthy sources, IMO.

    For some reason, the powers that be are being unreasonably uncooperative in looking into the whole autism thing. It's like, first people were saying it was this one preservative that was to blame. So the drug companies did all this research & said, nope, it's not that preservative so it is therefore safe.

    I'm thinking ok, so it's not that preservative but maybe it's that one in combination with something else, obviously there is SOMEthing in there that is reacting with something that is causing abnormally high results of autism & autism related results. But the gov't (who mandates all kids get this vacc) and the drug companies won't even talk about it. What the hell are they putting into our kids that they don't want us to know about???
    Basically all of this is simply false. There are gobs of peer-reviewed, scientific studies on the safety of vaccines, especially with regards to the substances that anti-vaccers cry foul on. You may have to get it for yourself, nobody is likely to read them on the news or anything like that, but it is ridiculously easy to find them.

    I'll get to the "obviousness" of vaccines 'causing' autism in a moment. First, let's look at some of the substances that anti-vaccers usually cry about.

    Quote Originally Posted by apoc
    “Critics argue that Adjuvantien [adjuvants in the vaccine] could lead to increased inoculation reactions such as headache or fever.”
    I'm mostly quoting this for how ludicrous it is, and indicative of the problem in reporting these days of trying to present both sides of an issue, even when one side is crazy. The following sentence is logically equivalent to what I quoted. "Critics argue that adjuvants in the vaccine could lead to crotches lighting on fire and people's elbows turning inside out."
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  2. #17
    King Sloth High House Chaos sir archely's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flu Vaccinations (and others?)

    This is the second half of a single post that was too large to post in one instance. Go above if you haven't already read that portion.


    Quote Originally Posted by apoc
    i personally see squalene as a soft kill weapon designed to injure and slow kill the general population...but that's just me and my kerazy theories
    First, perhaps we might take a little trip to find out what squalene actually is before we malign it too badly. To quote some relevant passages... "All higher organisms produce squalene, including humans. ... Squalene is a natural and vital part of the synthesis of cholesterol, steroid hormones, and vitamin D in the human body." and "squalene is a chemical naturally occurring in the human body, present even in oils of human fingerprints." The study showing a link between squalene and gulf war syndrome has been discredited. More reading on squalene.

    Another commonly maligned ingredient is aluminum. Though infants get more aluminum from breastmilk (or formula) in the first 6 months of their life than they do from the vaccines received in that period, by more than double. The quantity of aluminum found in vaccines is so low compared to the amount of aluminum already in a baby's blood that there is no perceptible change in the aluminum levels before and after a vaccination.


    So let's talk about the other, more common, culprit cited, thiomersal, aka thimerosal. Let's try the wiki page on the controversy first.

    One of the most telling phrases is this. "autism rates failed to decline despite removal of thiomersal, arguing strongly against a causative role." The most likely culprit for the increased rates of autism is simply that it is being diagnosed more now. Thimerosal was removed from the vaccines, and autism rates continued to increase. That simple statement pretty much blows the water out of thimerosal being the cause of autism. "The dramatic increase in reported cases of autism during the 1990s and early 2000s is largely attributable to changes in diagnostic practices, referral patterns, availability of services, age at diagnosis, and public awareness; it is unknown whether autism's true prevalence increased during the period."

    There are tons of studies, involving literally hundreds of thousands of people who got the MMR vaccine, and thimerosal, which show no correlation between autism and MMR/thimerosal. It is easy to cherry-pick some kooks who think this stuff is real, but the overwhelming data and scientific consensus is that there is no real danger of autism from vaccination.
    Here's an article for you. Very interesting refutation of some of the untruths spread by anti-vaccers. The immunological load section is particularly interesting, but as nobody has raised that point here, i'll simply let the article speak to it.

    On the flip side, we have such an irrational frenzy related to vaccines and mothers not getting children vaccinated against what are known to be serious diseases that there is a significant uptick in the occurances of those diseases. Even to the point where, as the herd immunity page cites, herd immunity is compromised in some areas for pertussis, measles and mumps. It is irresponsible to continue to advocate against vaccination in the absence of any real data to suggest danger, when there is very real danger for society at large when vaccinations are rejected.


    One more thing...
    Quote Originally Posted by apoc
    To me it begs the question, are vaccines a eugenics weapon, a corporation big moneymaker or are scientists and the vaccine manufacturers just clueless?
    Okay, maybe 2 things. 1. That's not what begging the question is. (Though I am willing to accept an evolving language, i think it is funny here because it is precisely the problem with so many anti-vaccine arguments.)
    2. Apoc, really. While I know this is the quill, and i'm not about to go delete your post or anything, I'm not sure how to take you seriously when you post stuff like this. That statement has no place in a rational discussion. The problem is not that it is false, for who knows? The problem is that you simply pulled it out of your ass. There is no logical basis for that statement. Not even the convoluted chain of terrible references you bring up in your post gives credence to that statement. I like a good CT as much as the next guy, probably more, but not when the evidence is so overwhelmingly against it, and not when believing the alternative adversely impacts people's health. That article you cite on the 10 questions is basically drivel. I can go into specifics on it if you want, but I won't for now. (Though I will say specifically that thimerosal/thiomersal is not a methyl mercury, it is an ehtyl mercury, with a vastly different profile. Mike Adams' inability to get even that trivial fact correct should tell you something about the article as a whole.)
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    The Espada 1st High House Dusk Apoc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flu Vaccinations (and others?)

    meh ~shrugs~ as i mentioned earlier my view is pretty much what eyre, mike and nf said already, i was just adding some tidbits like how the german top dogs are getting a different version of the h1n1 and how to me it seems the people that are demanding you take this are the same people that'll make a profit from it, whereas folk that i think know their shit are basically saying they'd not take it and advising against taking it also.

    Dude, quite frankly, my simple answer was no and all the reasons where written already why my answer was no...so yeah, i wasn't taking it that seriously...but what do you expect when you start a thread with a high horse preachy demand to "get it"?

    ~shrugs~
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  4. #19
    major major major major dark fuschia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flu Vaccinations (and others?)

    I do not think vaccines should be forced on people by law. Nor do I believe people should be shamed into it.

    Obviously you feel very strongly about it arch, and your conviction is admirable. It's just that no matter what reasons you state, and no matter how rational they might seem, people always have very good reasons of their own as to why authorities should not be trusted and why it is generally a good idea to ignore social pressure.
    Last edited by dark fuschia; October 20th, 2009 at 06:28.

  5. #20
    King Sloth High House Chaos sir archely's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flu Vaccinations (and others?)

    Here is a good article that goes over more clearly and with better references the material I tried to get into in my last posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc View Post
    Dude, quite frankly, my simple answer was no and all the reasons where written already why my answer was no...so yeah, i wasn't taking it that seriously...but what do you expect when you start a thread with a high horse preachy demand to "get it"?
    Quote Originally Posted by df
    Nor do I believe people should be shamed into it.
    What I had expected, or maybe hoped for, was a rational discussion of the issue, and anyone who disagreed posting some rational, fact-based reasons for why they disagreed. In my past two posts, I have essentially refuted all the reasons given (by nf, mike and eyre too) in this thread for not getting the vaccines, and given what I feel is a damned fine reason to get them. A reasoned response to any of that would be welcomed.

    The fact that you both, apoc and df, and probably others who haven't posted, don't like my "tone" or the way I'm posting has no bearing on the actual information content of my posts. In fact, I'm not attempting to 'shame' anyone into anything. Rather, i'm hoping the facts speak for themselves.

    Imagine that getting a vaccine is much like obeying a stop sign. It is a personal inconveniece we put up with in order to live better as a society. If I told you I was going to stop obeying stop signs because it was lowering my gas mileage and costing me too much money, we could have a rational discussion about whehter that is more or less important as the injuries and lives saved by obeying the signs.

    Of course I'm going to be adamant about this when all of the credible evidence shows that the lies, half-truths and rumors being spread about vaccines are leading to very real, and in many cases preventable, harm visited upon people. If you choose to run stop signs, you do so knowing that your decision may result in someone getting run down. It may not, you may simply go through a stop sign with no repercussions at all. But I think it is important for people to know that their decision not to get vaccinated carries the same possible consequence of running down a stranger.

    Getting vaccinated is an extremely low risk, low cost activity with a tangible benefit to both the individual and society at large.

    [PS to Kalle or anyone about cost - The H1N1 vaccines in the US have already been purchased by the taxpayers. If/When they become available to your age/risk group, they will be free in many instances, and only carry a small administrative fee in others.]
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    Enchanter Kalle al'Tear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flu Vaccinations (and others?)

    I found this article to be very relevant to this debate http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/1...nscience/all/1 I'd add more but Lane and Kaia have started arguing again so I have to get offline.
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    Default Re: Flu Vaccinations (and others?)

    Huge amounts of people are killed by cars every day. Should we abandon all our vehicles right this instance?
    I might accidentally slam a door in someone's face. But of course I could take precautions and knock on every door I encounter and pray there's not a deaf person on the other side.
    Oh, someone might bump into me on the street, fall on his head and die. Perhaps I should stay indoors for the rest of my life just to protect others from their own stupidity.

    Really...

    Perhaps I infect that person next to me in the grocery store. Perhaps he dies. Perhaps that stopped him from being drunk one day, get in his car and kill my son.

    Really...

    I'm not responsible for every bloody person on the planet nor can I be made to believe I am by not letting someone inject artificial stuff in my body.
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  8. #23

    Default Re: Flu Vaccinations (and others?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalle al'Tear View Post
    I found this article to be very relevant to this debate http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/1...nscience/all/1 I'd add more but Lane and Kaia have started arguing again so I have to get offline.
    Great link Kalle

    In May, The New England Journal of Medicine laid the blame for clusters of disease outbreaks throughout the US squarely at the feet of declining vaccination rates, while nonprofit health care provider Kaiser Permanente reported that unvaccinated children were 23 times more likely to get pertussis, a highly contagious bacterial disease that causes violent coughing and is potentially lethal to infants. In the June issue of the journal Pediatrics, Jason Glanz, an epidemiologist at Kaiser’s Institute for Health Research, revealed that the number of reported pertussis cases jumped from 1,000 in 1976 to 26,000 in 2004. A disease that vaccines made rare, in other words, is making a comeback. “This study helps dispel one of the commonly held beliefs among vaccine-refusing parents: that their children are not at risk for vaccine-preventable diseases,” Glanz says.
    To be clear, there is no credible evidence to indicate that any of this is true. None. Twelve epidemiological studies have found no data that links the MMR (measles/mumps/rubella) vaccine to autism; six studies have found no trace of an association between thimerosal (a preservative containing ethylmercury that was used in vaccines until 2001) and autism, and three other studies have found no indication that thimerosal causes even subtle neurological problems. The so-called epidemic, researchers assert, is the result of improved diagnosis, which has identified as autistic many kids who once might have been labeled mentally retarded or just plain slow. In fact, the growing body of science indicates that the autistic spectrum — which may well turn out to encompass several discrete conditions — may largely be genetic in origin.
    In 19th-century England, he explains, Jenner’s smallpox vaccine was known to be effective. But despite the Compulsory Vaccination Act of 1853, many people still refused to take it, and thousands died unnecessarily. “That was the birth of the anti-vaccine movement,” he says, adding that then — as now — those at the forefront “were great at mass marketing. It was a print-oriented society. They were great pamphleteers. And by the 1890s, they had driven immunization rates down to the 20 percent range.”

    Immediately, smallpox took off again in England and Wales, killing 1,455 in 1893. Ireland and Scotland, by contrast, “didn’t have any anti-vaccine movement and had very high immunization rates and very little incidence of smallpox disease and death,” he says, taking a breath. “You’d like to think we would learn.”

  9. #24
    High Roller High House Moon Dregs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flu Vaccinations (and others?)

    I really, really wanted to stay out of this. However

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Huge amounts of people are killed by cars every day. Should we abandon all our vehicles right this instance?
    If we're going to use inappropriate analogies....

    There are hundreds of millions of drivers on the roads every day. An overwhelmingly large proportion of them are not drunk. There are some that are drunk. Of the drunk proportion, only a small proportion will have an accident on any given day, and most will arrive home in one piece.

    Therefore, it is okay for YOU to drive whilst drunk, because chances are you’ll make it home and no one will die because of your actions. If you did have an accident, then you couldn’t be held responsible because what you do in your own car is your own business.

    I’d be happy with this scenario if every time you got drunk and drove, you did so on your own driveway.
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  10. #25
    Enchanter Kalle al'Tear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flu Vaccinations (and others?)

    LOL Amos you quoted the exact parts of the article that I was planning on quoting. I guess I have no need to quote them now :P


    I have read countless articles, books and other things that have said basically the same thing. yes illnesses that we get vaccinated for such as small pox, polio, measules and others are more rare to catch these days. But its BECAUSE we vaccinate that they are. And if we stop or when people refuse to take the vaccinations that's when those illnesses raise their ugly heads at a higher rate than what they have been.

    I know that its been argued that its every parents right to choose if its right for their kids to have the vaccinations. But seriously.. I am not about to let my children be added to the death count of any illness that could have been prevented if I just had let them go through the small discomfort of a little shot.


    For the record. When Kaia and Adria are old enough they will be getting the vaccine for Cervical Cancer as well as whatever booster shots they might need.
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    The Espada 1st High House Dusk Apoc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flu Vaccinations (and others?)

    ~applauds for mike~ i apparently need to spread the rep around but i'll hit you back when i have ~nods~ coz that was great

    Seriously though...this is a dumb argument as you can't force people to take this crap but nor can you stop folk from taking it, it's their choice...and it's not like i ignore all jabs, i've had plenty, i just distrust this one hugely and don't think it neccesary for me personally...hell i know quite a few folk that have had swine flu already and didn't have the h1n1 and yeah it sucked like all flu's do...but i just personally feel this jab will suck far more...

    Quote Originally Posted by arch
    1. That's not what begging the question is. (Though I am willing to accept an evolving language, i think it is funny here because it is precisely the problem with so many anti-vaccine arguments.)
    ummm okaaay then

    2. Apoc, really. While I know this is the quill, and i'm not about to go delete your post or anything, I'm not sure how to take you seriously when you post stuff like this. That statement has no place in a rational discussion. The problem is not that it is false, for who knows? The problem is that you simply pulled it out of your ass. There is no logical basis for that statement. Not even the convoluted chain of terrible references you bring up in your post gives credence to that statement. I like a good CT as much as the next guy, probably more, but not when the evidence is so overwhelmingly against it, and not when believing the alternative adversely impacts people's health. That article you cite on the 10 questions is basically drivel. I can go into specifics on it if you want, but I won't for now. (Though I will say specifically that thimerosal/thiomersal is not a methyl mercury, it is an ehtyl mercury, with a vastly different profile. Mike Adams' inability to get even that trivial fact correct should tell you something about the article as a whole.)
    So wait...the german top folk aren't getting a different form of the H1N1? And there aren't two different ingerdients that are wholly different going into them? meh...i'm done with this...quite frankly dude i think mike, wendy, eyre, nf et al where all giving good discursive reasons for not taking it and you've just dismissed them and ranted on in a righteous manner and toward me anyway in a very condescending manner, if you wanted a discussion you probably shouldn't have begun the way you did. And just for the record, the WHO is a fckn joke in my eyes, you're better off quoting Bush to me than them as i think they've told more shite, so anything you quote from them i'm instantly gonna dismiss and thus both our arguments could go on forever and ever.

    Anyways, my opinion on this was always gonna be easily dismissed, that is the curse of a smoker, we're evil polluting muthfckers don't ya know heh

    Peace anyways...i don't think its wrong that you've got it or whatever, its just wrong i think to take peoples choice away and belittle them for not doing it.
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  12. #27

    Default Re: Flu Vaccinations (and others?)

    In arch's defense, Apoc, you posted a link in your first post to a video of sensationalist coverage from Fox and quoted completely without references. Those two put together do not equal a rational argument. In fact quoting Fox in any form detracts from even the most well-reasoned argument, even if you do it just to prove how stupid the network is.

    And as for that squalene you mentioned:

    Quote Originally Posted by wikipedia
    Squalene is a natural organic compound originally obtained for commercial purposes primarily from shark liver oil, though botanic sources (primarily vegetable oils) are used as well, including amaranth seed, rice bran, wheat germ, and olives. All higher organisms produce squalene, including humans. It is a hydrocarbon and a triterpene. Squalene is a natural and vital part of the synthesis of cholesterol, steroid hormones, and vitamin D in the human body. Squalene is used in cosmetics, and more recently as an immunologic adjuvant in vaccines.
    Immunologic adjuvants are substances, administered in conjunction with a vaccine, that stimulate the immune system and increase the response to the vaccine. Squalene is one of those adjuvants. It is added to improve the efficacy of several vaccines, including pandemic flu and malaria vaccines.

    An adjuvant using squalene is Novartis' proprietary adjuvant MF59, which is added to influenza vaccines to help stimulate the human body's immune response through production of CD4 memory cells. It is the first oil-in-water influenza vaccine adjuvant to be commercialized in combination with a seasonal influenza virus vaccine. It was developed in the 1990s by researchers at Ciba-Geigy and Chiron; both companies were subsequently acquired by Novartis. It is present in the form of an emulsion and is added to make the vaccine more immunogenic. An MF59-adjuvanted influenza vaccine (Fluad, developed by Chiron, which contains about 10 mg of squalene per dose) has been approved by health agencies and used in several European countries for seasonal flu shots since 1997.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squalene

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    Default Re: Flu Vaccinations (and others?)

    As someone who works in the medical field I do see some use for the flu vaccine and esp. the H1N1 vaccine, in a limited way. Geriatrics, and young children NEED to get this. People with already compromised immune systems NEED this. The arguement that this will in some way limit a child's immune system is not accurate though. A vaccine is a dead version of the flu in this case with a small amount of antibodies in a protein suspension. Your body actually absorbs the dead virus into itself and will start creating antibodies of it's own to combat a future infection. The standard flu vaccine is a blend of several different strains of the flu that have been circulating in the population in previous years. Usually the virus that circulates this year will be a mutation or variation of the strongest bug from last year. It is not common for the virus from the previous year to stay the same so it is hoped that the antibodies from last year will in some way help against this years model. The hope is that if you get vaccinated you will already have a stronger immune system when it comes to combating the new bug because your body has already met his "cousin". It in no way grants immunity and does not weaken your natural defense. It simply gives your body more ammunition when it come to fighting the war. Your body does not get a free pass and it still does fight the bug, it just has better bullets. As to H1N1, there is now a theory that there are more than one version. The version originally found in Mexico was a weaker strain than the Asia variety that has appeared and the one that we are encountering even in Texas. The original lacked a specific protein that assisted in replication which meant that it was not as strong and it did not spread as quickly. The one we see now is replicating faster but its symptoms are not as strong. Patients with weakened immune systems are needing more meds and showing more symptoms than those with stronger bodies. I was required to get both injections since I work with geriatrics and people with AIDS and or Cancer. I don' think that vaccination should be legislated or that people's rights be taken from them in any way though. I think however that a dialogue should be enlightened and well informed. There is a lot of emotion in the public regarding H1N1, and I'm not sure how it has affected the people where you live, but in Manilla two months ago it was in the news every night and when you went out to the mall or even on the street about 50% of those on the street were wearing contamination masks. Here in Texas, it is very uncommon to see that on the street. I'm not sure whether this is a mistake or not. There were fewer H1N1 related fatalities in the entire Philippines than in the state of Texas, and there are 91,000,000 people there versus only 24,000,000 in Texas. So maybe an ounce of prevention might be helpful. The majority of those that have died from H1N1 have been the young and the very old, so it might not be for everyone, but for some it might just be a lifesaver. I am loath to disagree with my friends Apoc or NF, but there it is.
    Last edited by Nachtnoir; October 20th, 2009 at 21:52.
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    Default Re: Flu Vaccinations (and others?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nachtnoir View Post
    Geriatrics, and young children NEED to get this.
    I do think this is strange considering per the CDC people over 65 are the least infected age range. by far. 1.3% of cases were people over 65 & 41% of deaths were people aged 25-49. If anything, young adults should be vaccinated more than anyone based on those numbers. and seriously Nacht, you can always disagree with us, we're still friends I promise.

    Quote Originally Posted by sir archely View Post
    In fact, I'm not attempting to 'shame' anyone into anything.
    if you're not trying to shame anyone into anything, why did you say...

    Quote Originally Posted by sir archely
    What I am saying is that you have a choice between a clearly correct, responsible choice, and a clearly wrong one. So make the right choice.
    It's pretty clear you consider it shameful, even stupid, to make the "wrong" choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by sir archely
    Of course I'm going to be adamant about this when all of the credible evidence...
    See, call me paranoid, you'll be right, but I don't believe in credible evidence when it comes to the combination of medicine, politics & media.

    Quote Originally Posted by sir archely
    Getting vaccinated is an extremely low risk, low cost activity with a tangible benefit to both the individual and society at large.
    For me, I think the risk of accepting unknown liquid injected into me to be as low risk as getting sick, so I don't see the big deal with either decision. Unfortunately, if the gov't wasn't forcing me to put so many needles into my infant, I might not feel this way, but right now, the fewer unknown substances in my kid the better, IMO.

    Do you know, they vaccinate for Hep B at BIRTH??? Right after the kid is born, per the US gov't they vaccinate for a sexually transmitted disease. (or contaminated needles) That doesn't make you suspicious?

    (by the way, funny thing about the discrediting of that whole "The study showing a link between squalene and gulf war syndrome has been discredited." A friend of chronos' suffered from GWS, and for many years was told by the gov't, Veterans hospitals, etc, that it didn't exist. His entire platoon except himself & one other guy had since died from various illnesses but the gov't swears it's coincidence.)


    Quote Originally Posted by sir archely
    One of the most telling phrases is this. "autism rates failed to decline despite removal of thiomersal, arguing strongly against a causative role."
    This is exactly what I was talking about. There are 10 substances in this vaccination. People think Thing 1 is to blame for the increased autism rates, but we've now proven that is incorrect. Therefore, this vaccination doesn't affect autism rates in any way. What about the other 9 things, or any combination of them, or any combination of them & other enviornmental factors???

    They say in many cases illnesses are best diagnosed by the primary care giver who notices "something is off with my kid". In all the books they say it's important to trust your instincts about this sort of thing & bring your kid the the Dr if you see a change in behavior even without overt symptoms. So why does noone believe all these parents who see their kids behavior change IMMEDIATELY AFTER VACCINATION and they're diagnosed with autism???

    Quote Originally Posted by sir archely
    There are tons of studies, involving literally hundreds of thousands of people who got the MMR vaccine, and thimerosal, which show no correlation between autism and MMR/thimerosal. It is easy to cherry-pick some kooks who think this stuff is real, but the overwhelming data and scientific consensus is that there is no real danger of autism from vaccination.
    I guess it's not physically possible that the gov't is adding stuff to the vacc now that they didn't used to & the overwhelming studies attesting to it's safety are based on people vacc'd over the years before the new stuff was added.


    Quote Originally Posted by sir archely
    We aren't even into the normal run of flu season, and we're at something like 86 children deaths, compared to the upper bound of 88 children deaths for the entire run of a normal flu season.
    This again illustrates my point. Everyone's FREAKING OUT about this flu & the mortality rate is practically nothing. 86 childrens deaths, maybe what, 1000 by the end of the season? Out of how many billions? It's unbelievably low.

    Quote Originally Posted by sir archely
    If your position is that the lives of those people simply aren't worth protecting ... then say that. But try not to hide behind, I'm making this choice for myself and nobody else...
    arch, if it really makes you feel better, I'll admit, I don't give a rats ass about the person next to me in the grocery store.

    Quote Originally Posted by sir archely
    Now, let me be clear here, I am not proposing mandatory vaccination. I think that's a recipe for disaster. What I am saying is that you have a choice between a clearly correct, responsible choice, and a clearly wrong one. So make the right choice. Sorry if that is harsh, but it's the truth.
    I think it's funny that you're not proposing mandatory vacc, but you think in a truly socially responsible, intelligent & educated society, every single person who could, would be vaccinated.

    "...just an idle doodle in the margins of our minds ..."
    ...nf

  15. #30

    Default Re: Flu Vaccinations (and others?)

    Quote Originally Posted by night faerie View Post
    Do you know, they vaccinate for Hep B at BIRTH??? Right after the kid is born, per the US gov't they vaccinate for a sexually transmitted disease. (or contaminated needles) That doesn't make you suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.vaccineinformation.org/hepb/qandavax.asp
    Why is this vaccine recommended for all babies when most of them won't be exposed to HBV for many years, if then?

    There are three basic reasons for recommending that all infants receive hepatitis B vaccine, starting at birth.

    First, babies and young children have a very high risk for developing chronic HBV infection if they become infected at a young age.

    It is estimated that about 1 out of 3 of the nearly 1 million Americans with chronic HBV infection acquired their infection as infants or young children. Those with chronic HBV infection are most likely to spread the infection to others. Infants and children who become chronically infected have an increased risk of dying prematurely from liver cancer or cirrhosis.

    In contrast to other vaccine-preventable diseases of childhood, HBV infection in infants and young children usually produces no symptoms. Thus, the small number of reported cases of hepatitis B among children represents the tip of the iceberg of all HBV infections in children. For every child with symptoms of hepatitis B, there are at least 100 HBV-infected children with no symptoms---hence the increased risk to spread the infection to others without knowing it.

    Second, early childhood infection occurs. About 16,000 children under 10 years of age were infected with HBV every year in the United States before routine infant hepatitis B vaccination was recommended. Although these infections represented few of all HBV infections in the United States, it is estimated that 18 out of 100 people with chronic HBV infection in the United States acquired their infection during early childhood. Clearly, infections occur among unvaccinated infants born to mothers who are not HBV-infected. In addition, unvaccinated foreign-born children account for a high proportion of infections. More effort needs to be placed on vaccinating these unprotected children.

    Most early childhood spread of HBV occurs in households where a person has chronic HBV infection, but the spread of HBV has also been recognized in daycare centers and schools. The most probable ways children become infected with HBV are from skin puncture (e.g., biting) or from having their mucous membranes or cuts and scratches come in contact with infectious body fluids from an HBV-infected person. HBV remains infectious for at least seven days outside the body and can be found on and spread through sharing of inanimate objects such as washcloths or toothbrushes.

    Third, long-term protection following infant vaccination is expected to last for decades and will ultimately protect against acquiring infection at any age."

    Quote Originally Posted by night faerie
    It's unbelievably low.
    It's not that low.

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