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Thread: I can't even comprehend the logic of this!

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    Default I can't even comprehend the logic of this!

    In this article in the New York Times, Dr. John Willke says a woman's tubes tighten up when she's undergoing a trauma like rape. Wow...I just..I can't even begin to get this! Of course, as Bryan Fischer of the conservative Christian group American Family Association basically says, c'mon ladies, he IS a doctor after all. He MUST know what he's talking about, amIright? John Willke apparently wrote an article that infers women's hormones (which by the way are emotionally influenced, he says...um, aren't emotions influenced by hormones and neurotransmitters, not the other way around?) have to be just the right mix in order for her to get and stay pregnant. *warning: sarcasm begins here* Wow, so if this is true, that must be why women are such emotional creatures then! I GET it now! We have to be happy and hormonally blissful to pop out the babies! I guess that's why women in unhappy relationships or that undergo financial stress NEVER get pregnant...because they are undergoing stress and emotional trauma. Is that why I never see hungry, dirty kids around or hear about them in the news? What a relief! /end sarcasm

    Now, in all seriousness, I know that a woman's hormones do have to be in a certain state in order for her to get pregnant. That's kind of a no-brainer. But as a non-doctor woman, even I know that these hormones are cyclical based on time, not on my emotions. That's why women are more likely to get pregnant at certain times during her cycle. This guy is a doctor?

    You know, one of my favorite medical jokes is an oldie but a goodie: What do they call the guy who finished in the bottom of his medical school class? That's right, they call him "doctor."

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    void Anita Blake's Avatar
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    Default Re: I can't even comprehend the logic of this!

    oh man, the number of thoughts that have gone through my head on this one. But, you know, in all seriousness, it's good to know that "legitimate" rape rarely leads to pregnancies, because I guess that means we can safely ignore millions of descendants of ghengis khan (and his soldiers!). Oh them? Figments of our imagination. Also, I mean, it's great that these new Science® facts have come out. I'm pretty sure that men in who love to hate women will be pleased to learn that the best birth control is violent rape. Plus, it's good to know that if you're pregnant, clearly you were asking for it, since it's Scientifically ® improbable that you'd be pregnant had you really been raped. Come on, ladies, you were dressed like sluts, weren't you? That's clear consent and intent right there, so why would you even ever consider hurting the "unborn children" ® inside you?


    1. no consent = rape. I don't care if it's a man, woman, dog or squirrel - if they can't legally give consent and you have sex with them, it's rape.

    2. a child is by definition someone who has been born. You can't become a child until after you leave infancy. I think an unborn child is kind of maybe undead? How can you kill that which is dead?

    3. Some women who are raped wouldn't dream of having an abortion, and hey, that's OK. That is that woman's way of dealing with what happened to her. Some women who are raped can't stand the thought of bearing the child of their attacker. Some women want to have a baby, but find out mid-pregnancy one of many, many, many reasons why it's just not going to work. Some women use birth control and it fails. Some women have no foresight and don't use birth control, and get pregnant and don't want to be. The only restriction I want to see to abortion is that, like sex, it should be with informed consent. No one should ever be pushed into getting an abortion. Ever. For any reason. The father, her partner, her family - these people have nothing to do with it, and should stay out of it except to support the pregnant woman in whatever she decides. Like any medical procedure, the patient should be made aware of the risks, given a list of potential side effects and medications to take/avoid.


    The thing is, I don't care if someone is "slutty" and "using abortion as birth control". Do I agree with that? no, of course not, but it's not my life. If that's how someone wants to live their life, that's between them and their gods/conscience/family/whatever. Nor do I think that people like that should be excluded from being able to legally terminate a pregnancy. Because chances are, if they are that dumb, they probably have no business raising a child (not to mention that they'll likely just illegally terminate, which is more scary.) I tend to think that the only pregnant women out there should be the ones who want to be pregnant. Yes, accidents happen all the time and people who never wanted children suddenly find themselves knocked up and thinking "hey, yeah, I could do this!". I think that all children should be wanted children.

    As for these neanderthals and their vision of how babies are made and prevented, I wish enlightenment upon them. Because people that stupid just shouldn't exist.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: I can't even comprehend the logic of this!

    Although this has been politicized into an abortion issue, what scares me is the whole "legitimate rape" issue. Yeah, Akin has apologized, which I don't give a shit about. I'm scared that there are LAW MAKERS out there who are trying to polish this turd of a term. Like you said, Anita, rape is rape. Forcible rape, legitimate rape...these are terms that should not even EXIST! And law makers and other "influential" people are using them. It makes me worry about what territory the laws protecting rape victims could head into. There are different degrees of murder and manslaughter...are we looking at the possibility of different degrees of rape? Ugh.
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    void Anita Blake's Avatar
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    Default Re: I can't even comprehend the logic of this!

    I've been reading that Paul Ryan is among those trying to make "forcible rape" a real, legal term (as in embedded into various bits of legislation.)

    I'm a vehemently pro-choice type, and it seems to me that for good or for ill, at least as far as politics go, rape and abortion go hand in hand. So many of the religious right are against abortion, "except in cases of rape or incest", but then they logically see "rape or incest" as a legal loophole for slutty women to getting an abortion, so then they need to further explain that what they meant was "the kind of rape where a strange scary man holds a weapon to you in a dark alley and you were wearing a nun habit so totally weren't asking for it - I guess then you could maybe get an abortion - if you really hate your baby that much, and can prove it, about the rape, that is." I think that's why we're suddenly seeing this uptick in "forcible" rape talk, almost always in tandem with birth control or abortion. Because frankly, none of them care about rape unless the victim is an innocent, white virgin who never even heard about sex before. The second you are on birth control, you're sullied goods, and it would be impossible to rape such an irredeemable slut. (at least it seems that's the way they think. And it fills me with Rage®)

    So I see where they are coming from, but it's just that they're wrong.
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    Default Re: I can't even comprehend the logic of this!

    Quote Originally Posted by Anita Blake View Post
    So I see where they are coming from...
    Explain more. Because I don't see it at all. (The all-knowing) Google defines rape as "The crime, committed by a man, of forcing another person to have sexual intercourse with him, esp. by the threat or use of violence." Which means than forcible rape is, "Forcible forcing of another person to commit sexual intercourse." It's either redundant or it's saying that Person A raped Person B because Person C made him. No.

    Have you ever changed so drastically that you can no longer even remember the logic behind your previous choice? I used to be one of those girls who'd see another girl dressed like a slut and think, "Of course, when she gets raped, she'll whine like she's the victim, nevermind that she's dressed like a hooker." While I still get a little irritated by the amount of almost-cooch that I see in public, I no longer think that if they got raped, they'd deserve what's coming to them and I can't for the life of me remember why I ever thought that. And being on birth control should in no way negate a rape. Just because you enjoy sex, doesn't mean you'd find it pleasurable when someone you don't know or like holds you don't with a knife and has sex with you.

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    Default Re: I can't even comprehend the logic of this!

    First, google is definitely not all-knowing, considering women can also commit rape.

    The "forcible" rape thing is just stupid, disgusting and wrong.

    However, I think what these people are trying to say is that they think women have sex and then regret it, and then want to claim they were raped. So that's not "forcible" rape. Or something. It happens, sure, (though not to the extent they would have anyone believe, i'd guess) but my understanding is that by claiming this is the reason for the wording in the legislation, you can actually legislate a narrower definition of rape. You move the goalposts on rape, and now abortions in the case of "rape" (as in the legislated definition) can only occur narrower circumstances. And probably also would require the rape victim to somehow prove she was actually raped in order to get that "abortion in case of rape." It's definitely a way of shifting the burden from the rapist to the raped.

    So if your entire goal is less or no abortions, making it harder to prove someone was actually "raped" is just a way of changing the conversation a bit to favor your goal.

    One thing that's really odd/sad/unfortunate/disgusting about this particular kerfuffle with Todd Akin is that all he did was articulate the official party platform in a way that wasn't as opaque as most of the politician-speak we get from conservative candidates about the issue. Now we have all of these republicans distancing themselves from him, not because they disagree with him, but just because it was bad publicity. Most of the people scrambling away from him hold similar views; they just don't want to been seen with someone on the wrong side of the media at the moment.
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    Default Re: I can't even comprehend the logic of this!

    1) Fair point. I thought about pointing out that women can commit rape, too, but that seemed less of a point at the time. (i.e. I'm working on my catching and redirecting myself when I'm get too ADD.)

    2) I think it is unfortunate for Akin that, yeah, people that believe the exact same thing than him are distancing themselves in order to save face. It's really hypocritical. So, I don't find it at all odd. I find it rather predictable. Politicians. Ugh.
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    Mistress of Shadows High House Moon night faerie's Avatar
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    Default Re: I can't even comprehend the logic of this!

    in contrast to "forcible rape" there is "coercive rape", ie... have sex with me or I'll kill your family, spill your secrets or somesuch. Just saying.

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    Default Re: I can't even comprehend the logic of this!

    I had a nice long comment set to go here but I fear with the internet and the inability of the english language to accurately convey meaning I am going to not post it as I think people would misunderstand and get upset.
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    Default Re: I can't even comprehend the logic of this!

    Quote Originally Posted by night faerie View Post
    in contrast to "forcible rape" there is "coercive rape", ie... have sex with me or I'll kill your family, spill your secrets or somesuch. Just saying.
    There are many types of rape. I have seen and worked with the perpetrators of every one of them. They would all be considered "legitimate" to me.

    Illegitimate to me would include a drunk guy and girl consenting to intercourse and the girl sobers up and says rape because she was too drunk to really consent. So was the guy so were you both raped? Or girl has sex with boy in high school get's pregnant and says rape because she doesn't want her parents mad at her. I know of both of these events happening, the first one quite a few times. Not rape.

    I am not in Akin's head but could he have meant this type of scenario when he said "legitimate rape"? Does anyone know any statistics on how many rapes per year result in pregnancy? I would like to know this information before I condemn a man for a comment that might have been taken wrong. I also read in his exact comment that said as he "from what I understand from doctors" which isn't really him saying hey this is how it is. He is saying hey this is how I have been told it is. That leads me to believe that someone could show him studies and actually teach the man and he may say "well the dr. that told me that junk before was full of crap." I also don't want to condemn a man because he was given misinformation by people he had every reason to believe knew more on the subject than he did. To me I guess at this point Akin is less of a problem than the dr or drs. that are spreading misinformation to the public and politicians.
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    Default Re: I can't even comprehend the logic of this!

    "illegitimate rape" is just not rape. There's no need to dilute the term rape. There are no varying degrees of rape.

    As far as how many... the number I see most often is about 30,000 per year. Which, as I understand it, is an estimate based partially on the number of abortions of raped women happen per year, which is about 10k to 15k.
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    Default Re: I can't even comprehend the logic of this!

    Quote Originally Posted by prophetic_joe View Post
    To me I guess at this point Akin is less of a problem than the dr or drs. that are spreading misinformation to the public and politicians.
    It's a good example of confirmation bias: the doctor's statements, however implausible they sound, fit with Akin's ideology, so he accepts them without verification. Everyone does it to some extent, although one could argue that the ideologically driven are more susceptible. A more critical person might investigate the opinions of other doctors/experts, or to see if there's supporting evidence, or even check the actual basis of the original claim. But this is politics, and people are stupid. And awful.
    Last edited by Dregs; August 23rd, 2012 at 21:19.
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    Default Re: I can't even comprehend the logic of this!

    Quote Originally Posted by AquaFizz View Post
    (The all-knowing) Google defines rape as "The crime, committed by a man, of forcing another person to have sexual intercourse with him, esp. by the threat or use of violence."
    Well, sort of. rape is better defined as "non-consensual sex". If one party does not consent, it is rape. If one party is not legally capable of giving consent (i.e. a minor) it is rape. When a wife says "no honey, I'm too tired" and he proceeds to have sex with her regardless, it is rape. When consent is given under duress, it is not consent, therefore: rape. If a person is too incapacitated by drugs or alcohol to give consent, it is rape.

    When people like Akin are talking about "legitimate rape", what they mean is the old-fashioned, stranger-in-an-alley holding a deadly weapon and uttering vile threats. They are saying that marital rape isn't "really" rape, that date rape doesn't count because you weren't threatened. They are saying that saying no but not trying to fight your way out of sex physically means that probably, you were into it. But, if you lucked out and were violently attacked, your rape counts as "legitimate", real old-fashioned rape, and as such, you are a better person than if you just lied there and took it while your husband took advantage of your lack of power.

    And THAT is why what he said angered so many people.
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    Twisted with Hate prophetic_joe's Avatar
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    Default Re: I can't even comprehend the logic of this!

    Quote Originally Posted by Anita Blake View Post
    When people like Akin are talking about "legitimate rape", what they mean is the old-fashioned, stranger-in-an-alley holding a deadly weapon and uttering vile threats. They are saying that marital rape isn't "really" rape, that date rape doesn't count because you weren't threatened. They are saying that saying no but not trying to fight your way out of sex physically means that probably, you were into it. But, if you lucked out and were violently attacked, your rape counts as "legitimate", real old-fashioned rape, and as such, you are a better person than if you just lied there and took it while your husband took advantage of your lack of power.
    I guess I am not comfortable saying what my opinion on what the man may have meant is. Your statement here is just that. While what you say very well could be true, and probably is true, I would need to see quotes from the man saying that he believes this. I am not going to attempt to be a mind reader and condemn him on what I believe he meant by what he said. The fact is he could have meant something totally different. Words have many different meanings and are thrown together to make tons of different points. I have seen too many needless arguments happen because of what someone believes someone else said when in fact that is not what they meant at all. Could Akin mean what you say he means? Of course. Could he mean something different? Yes he could. This is where my problem comes. If I were to see quotes from him saying exactly what he believed "illegitimate rape" to be I could better draw my conclusions to his ridiculousness.
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    Hey! That's ME! AquaFizz's Avatar
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    Default Re: I can't even comprehend the logic of this!

    Do you have cable? Have you seen The Newsroom? It's an amazing show. It's related to this conversation because the people in the show put in a bid to host the RNC debates and show how THEY would run the debates. Basically, they hold politicians accountable for their actions. The greatest example being that Will (the lead) wants to ask Michelle Bachman: If God "spoke" to her, what did his voice sound like? It's about having legitimately intelligent and well-researched questions and having moderators who will demand actual answers. If we had debates like that, we'd be able to ask Akin what, exactly he thinks "legitimate rape" looks like and we'd be able to hold him accountable to actually answer the question.

    Can you imagine how much more enjoyable democracy would be if we felt like we actually truly knew WTF politicians believed and stood for? I think it'd be amazing.
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    Oh. About that...

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